Around the Hall: IU at BC, Hulls on Michel, team GPA, more

  • 05/11/2010 8:40 pm in

Around the Hall is recommended reading from the Inside the Hall crew. So go ahead, get your read on, kids.

+ Indiana will play at Boston College in the ACC-Big Ten Challenge according to our friends at The Hoosier Scoop.

+ Jordan Hulls weighs-in with his thoughts on Guy-Marc Michel, who signed a Letter of Intent last Friday.

+ Tom Crean tweeted his team’s GPA for the spring semester: A 3.16.

+ Jody Demling checks in with Jeffersonville sophomore-to-be Darryl Baker, who is healthy and ready to have a big summer.

+ Indiana is among the schools that have visited Lawrence North big man Michael Chandler, according to Kyle Neddenriep.

+ Cody Larson, the former Iowa recruit who recently chose Florida, is facing a misdemeanor drug charge.

+ Bud Mackey, who committed to IU under Kelvin Sampson, was arrested again.

+ Rush the Court reveals its post-NBA Draft deadline top 25.

+ Tournament information for this weekend’s adidas May Classic is now available.

+ Illinois picked up a commitment for its 2011 recruiting class.

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  • Hardwood Wizard

    Have no clue who 4Guards is nor do I care. I am comfortable with who I am.

    Sure I love the Hoosiers. I can't say I am in love with what I have seen over the past 15 years though.

    I loved Bobby but his antics needed checked. Mike Davis wasn't a bad hire, but there were better ones out there. Kelvin was the wrong hire because of his ethics prior to his debaucle at IU. Crean was a good hire, but I have yet to see the results. Yes we have improved, but I think we have yet to see any consistency in play, toughness, rebounding, grit, defense, etc.

    I question why Elston sat so much last year? Why did Dumes even see the floor on a 10 win team? Where was Bawa? We were a 10 win team. Why didn't Watford play the 3 all year especially after Creek went down.

    I am not way off base.

    I want a vision, consistency on the court and in recruiting. I don't care how young we are, we should never lose to George Mason, Loyola, or Boston U.

    I have been conservative on who we should chase. Don't go after Larson, Moses, etc. Let's stay closer to home and root ourselves in the hotbed of talent in the Midwest, particularly Indiana. Let's not recruit the same style of player over and over and over. Lets mix in a big man. I have no doubt Guy came be a force on defense, but can he log 20 min a game if he cannot score? Does he fit our style? He is only going to be here 2 years. I think we should have passed on him. We aren't winning a championship this year. Let Elston, Capo, TP, Watford, Bawa rotate through the 4 and 5 spots. Maybe we need to play an agressive zone for 2010-11? Outside of MSU and OSU, who consistently hits the 3? Purdue is streaky, so is Ill and Wisc as well.

    I just have some thoughts and see things a bit differently. I see reality and question if others are seeing kittens, clowns, unicorns, and rainbows.

    I am the kid who was proud to be an IU fan when I went to college in KY. I was elated in 87 and devastated when Henderson got hurt. I was so pumped when they made it to the finals against Maryland. And all the years inbetween I wanted them to win every game.

  • marsh21

    Since I'm an idiot then go ahead and get your 3 star, 5-10 point guard now then. Lock him up man because you know the train is leaving the station and IU has no other choices in the country. You guys make it sound like IU is lost and can only attract 3 star players because we've had a little down time.

    I'm glad guys like you were not our Military Generals or we wouldn't be speaking English.

    Strive for more!

  • JerryCT

    Hardwood – yes I am not afraid to critique things I see and I have not criticized you. I have no problem with your POV ( I am not saying I agree with it completely either ).

    My difference w your view on recruiting is:

    a) scouting numbers are good for maybe the top 30 players and then forget it, 300 teams will not get them
    b) kids in HS are 3-4 yrs away from their “impact years”
    c) just one Bud Mackey could ruin our fragile foundation at this point

    I 90% believe and trust that CTC is building a “foundation” for a long term program success and pride. This means 3 – 4 year players we fans get to know and love , who get GPA numbers and limited embarrassing incidents. In this way he creates a brand and a following. From there he can go after the guys you covet. Think how further behind we would be if Creek were not coming back.

    CTC's dilemna , as you point out, is if he cannot win this way it all begins to unravel. This is why , to me, the product on the floor is more critical, whoever our players are.

    I was in PR and distressed to watch BU, GM and Ol Miss in person ……….. at least I was staying at the Ritz Carlton.

    I was attacked during the season for daring to question Dumes not playing alongside JR when we needed stops, lack of time from Elston, too much time from Hulls, 1-3-1 zone that put Hulls on Sampson3 , no off ball screens, only one guy on the team screening anyway ….. and I am sure Millared can add some more items as well.

    This is a long winded way of saying I support your courage in having perhaps an unpopular view of recruiting …………… but I think recruiting is also where the case is weakest for maybe 18- 24 more months

  • Hardwood Wizard

    In the tournament, they spent some time on the floor together and they did the second half of the season as well.

    Look, I really appreciate your attempts but Orton would play in a 2 to 3 minutes spurt typically. He was never in the flow of the game or offense.

    Plain and simple, Orton played in the SEC against athletes and good talent. He was the back up to Cousins. He rarely played more than 3 minutes at a time. If he played cousins minutes he would have been a 10 ppg 6 rbg type of guy. How many 18/19 year olds who are 7' did that last year in major college basketball?

  • JerryCT

    I spent alot of money going to PR and staying at the Ritz ……….. only to suffer through the losses . Losing is bad enough w/o paying a fortune to experience it.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    Excuses dude! Really they are! How about this, you win the games you are suppose to and every year you have a chance to comete at another level/tournament with some luck.

    I guess this year when we get beat by a weak team it will be because we have a few new players on the team and they haven't gelled yet.

    Didn't those other teams have less talent and it was one of their first 8 games too?

    “I could say the kids didn't show up to play and I will get attacked because the team is so young. I could say that CTC was outcoached and I will here that the team was so young. I could question how good the 2009 class really is and I will be told they are an excellent class.”

    You fell into the trap.

  • JerryCT

    Marcus – I agree with your depth defense since we could defend w Rivers , Dumes, Moore but not score w/o Jones, Hulls . It was , “pick your least worst option “.

    But lets get real as well.

    1. Would you run a 1-3-1 against Sampson3 such that Moore and Hulls defended him under the bucket ?

    2. How long would you wait and how far behind would you be to begin a “hockey like platooning” of players engaged in pressing or trapping in a) a single game and b) in the season

    3. If a lineup consistently falls behind early and is a net negative most of the time early ( I call it the Hulls lineup ) would you maybe try to change it to see if you could hang in the game longer ? ( BTW I spent hours reviewing and calculating the net + or – from lineups based on the sub pattern and scores at the beginning and end of a sub on the floor, using the play by play )

    4. For a brief moment we fed Elston at the high post and he fed a cutter for an easy NW style bucket against NW. This offense , that we had practiced against, was never used before or after …….. even though it worked and probably had been runnign it in practice.

    these are the things that make me wonder.

  • JerryCT

    Voila ! Emailing Alex now. When I donate I feel I am donating to you guys as well.

  • kentuckyhoosier

    thats because of where and who he played with …. not that i would of wanted him , but top recruits to ( vomit ) uk are an everyday ordeal these days . Orton isnt the sharpest kid , declaring to the nba . Im sure he would of brought our gpa down , as KenFucky's gpa was barely a 2 .

  • kentuckyhoosier

    thats because of where and who he played with …. not that i would of wanted him , but top recruits to ( vomit ) uk are an everyday ordeal these days . Orton isnt the sharpest kid , declaring to the nba . Im sure he would of brought our gpa down , as KenFucky's gpa was barely a 2 .

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    It wouldn't let me reply below…

    *Some* time on the floor together = *most* time NOT on the floor together. Did you watch their tournament games? It got so annoying to hear the announcers talking about “subbing one giant for another” because it happened so often. I will grant you that he only played in spurts.

    Look, I really appreciate your attempts, but I already said that if Orton got Cousins minutes, he'd get 5-6 rebounds per game. I'm not saying he sucked, or whatever, but I am saying that 5 star doesn't automatically = mind-bendingly awesome. And is it better to have a 5-star that plays for one year or have a 3-star the plays for 4? That's also part of the debate here.

    Let me again reiterate that I want JDavis, first and foremost, but I'm not against offering Stevie Taylor or Yogi Ferrell just because they're not 5-star recruits that probably won't play in the NBA. I hope that offering those kids scholarships will actually motivate JDavis to pick us, and pick us soon! (Sort of like flirting with another girl just to make the girl you like jealous so that she'll accept your invitation to prom–a poor analogy though it may be.)

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    Thanks, CT! I live in Lafayette and teach classes and TA for Purdue, so I'm already surrounded by idiots, so I get a lot of practice using logic. πŸ˜‰ I also benefit from the fact that Boilermakers have a third-grade reading level. πŸ™‚

  • walton

    “I question why Elston sat so much last year? Why did Dumes even see the floor on a 10 win team? Where was Bawa? We were a 10 win team. Why didn't Watford play the 3 all year especially after Creek went down.”

    I am not starting it but I will go ahead and agree with you here. And in my opinion these are concerns that I have as well. I go back to when IU beat NW with elston, capo, watford, hulls, and VJIII. Why in the world were these players not on the court the majority of the time when we played the exact same team a few days later??? I figured at the time Crean was just playing dumes, rivers, and pritchard because that was the last time they would wear those jerseys, but that theory isn't holding true now.

    This year we will see a lot.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    There are also things called timeouts, substitutions, zone defense, full court press, 1-3-1 half cour traps, etc.

    If they were fatigued than make them in shape, that is the coaches job.

    Put 4 guards on the floor, run a motion offense to look for the open 3. From this let the guard attack and hit the opposite wing spotting up or cutting to the basket. How about the big in that scheme set a high ball screen and roll to the open spot on the floor or screen away for another guard?

    Why we continue to make excuses baffles me.

    Listen, Calipari will always have Ky in the top 10 because he can recruit like crazy, but the man cannot win a championship. Het butchered Memphis when they played Kansas a few years back.

    Coach K can recruit and coach. Tom Izzo is of the same mold.

    With the talent in our state, Crean should get the recruiting piece down the next two years, he just needs to polish up his playbook and execution.

    Part of it is inexperience, but much of it is making changes on the fly.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    Good points. The product on the floor is very important. 13-18 sounds much better than 10-21. Last season at 13-18 means we are about 10 quality possessions away from being .500. That would allow for deeper breaths.

    I hope that by November we have JDavis locked up with AE. From there we can slide in some 3 star recruits and be solid. But, I cannot help my concern for the lack of identity, big man signing, and missed recruits in our backyard.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    This is the type of inconsistecies that we all saw last season. Personally they drove me crazy. I doubt it is to that extreme this year since the team is a year older and hopefully more defined.

  • MillaRed

    Well then I will assume you are new to Inside the Hall because everything you mention above has been discussed in thorough detail. I would say many agree with some of the points.

    My problem is your delivery. The best thing about this site, whether we agree or disagree with each other, is at the end of the day we are a team. Your posts are borderline condescending, if not short novels.

    You will find the site much more enjoyable and get better feedback if you back off the “mightier than thou” approach.

    I wish I could have written that off-line, but this is the best I could do.

    Good luck.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    I guess my haste comes from my confusion on the scheme of our team. I could care less about a true center if we ran a double high post or block offense that featured down screens, high screens, ball screens, back screens, or screening away. In this system we have what we need, 2 6'9″ players in Elston and Watford who are pretty solid on the florr and athletic enough to take a big man to the rack if being guarded away from the paint or hitting a 15' jumper.

    But apparently, this is not the case because we went out and got a 7'1″ big who rocked out a 7ppg and 7rpg at a JUCO. BTW, he is on scholarship and they are hard to come by and we have many serious possible recruits out there with no scholly room.

    I am troubled with how this will play out and CTC saying that these things have a way of working themselves out is not very comforting.

  • JerryCT

    Hello Walton – just for the record. My questions or statements are just things I feel I need more in depth answers on . I don't translate the questions into “fire the coach” feelings. Once I hear explanantions I might well agree w coaching staff because I understand better. Part of this is the softball questions coach is asked after games.

    I got very tired last year hearing “youth, toughness, no upperclassmen, communication, leadership” etc all of which may be true. But this does not tell me why Elston's butt eats pine , for example.

  • JerryCT

    Millared – I appreciate you more and maybe you appreciate me more now that Hardwood is around, Buy you a drink in Madison June 5

  • MillaRed

    Come on Jerry you know you are my buddy. If you are seriously going to be in the area let me know. You can email Alex and he can give you my email address to talk it over.

    I just made a donation to ITH folks! Who is next?

  • JerryCT

    Are we missing someone ?

    Poof ! ” Gone w/o a trace “, ………. maybe in treatment at Shutter Island

  • Hardwood Wizard

    Who has the thin skin that is flagging my posts? Alex?

    No profanity! I didn't say anyone sucks. Didn't say anything out of line other than questioning the methods or approach IU has been taking within the basketball program.

    Wow!

  • Hardwood Wizard

    Seriously a guy cannot know a little about basketball, the recruits IU is bringing in, question the scheme or style of offense, wonder about the effectiveness of our recruiting? Can a guy not talk about screens, landing in state recruits, etc.?

    MillaRed, I don't like being told to chill out because I have some questions about the program. Am I not allowed to have an opinion?

    I have been around this site since the winter. Just because things were discussed last season doesn't men they aren't still issues or sources of concern.

    There is no mightier than thou approach here, just one with few answers to the perplexing position we are in on May 12, 2010.

  • MillaRed

    Hey if you guys are coming to BadgerTown I'll be the one buying the beers. Let me know and I'll take you to the Big Ten Pub. Can't think of a better place to have a brew. Perhaps egg Bo Ryan's house? I hate coaches that have better records……..

  • MillaRed

    OK Hardwood fine and dandy. I don't claim to have all fo the answers either. Perhaps read though some of your other posts, take a step back and think it over.

    Is it the Barney show that plays that song? “Someone here is not like the others…..”

  • walton

    I got kind of tired of the “this is what is going to change in the future, this is what we will have in the future, this and that about the future” Sometimes I wish Crean would stop talking so much about the future even though he is very good at it and talk more about the present.

    I too would like to get some clarification from Crean sometimes, but I get the sense that he is someone that feels like he doesn't have to explain himself or his decisions. I notice he gets a little fiery sometimes in the press conference to certain questions. Good side and bad side to this.

    Bottom line though is that I am far away from saying anything near “fire crean” – he believes with time he can turn the program around and I am all for him having his time to do so. Though I got questions, concerns, as well as excitement I am still “in Crean I trust”

  • marcusgresham

    Sesame St. (hanging head in shame for knowing the difference between a Barney song and a Sesame St. song)

  • marsh21

    Yes, I certainly don't think we should wait until the last minute for the 11 season however we're only in May of 2010. We still have plenty of time to locate someone who fits. Let's not take a player now just because he likes IU and is ready to go. Plus IU doesn't have any positions left for 2011 unless they oversign and kick current players off the team. If we have to get rid of current players because of recruits then please bring somone in that's going to have impact now.

  • marsh21

    Ever here of Fab Melo??? Don't even make me start researching Syracuse and the success over the years with the number of stars because I feel somewhat confident a few were rated in the top 100.

  • marsh21

    You can't make these comparisons of playing time and stats. So much of basketball is timing and flow and variables with other teams etc.. Plus he didn't have any pressure to perform because of the other studs.

    The point is, why would Orton have an agent and go through this draft if he didn't have talent? He's got talent and it wasn't a result of the rating system putting the 5 stars behind his name. The talent came first or he wouldn't even consider this move.

  • MillaRed

    Ha! That's great stuff marcus nice work. I will confess I knew this but didn't want to show my age. I am a bad person.

  • marsh21

    You chosing a recent team with success but that same team could have easily been beaten by Murray State and knocked out of the NCAA.

    The stars are not everything but the combination of 5-10 and 3 stars is something to consider when you're also chasing 6-3 and 4 stars who are ranked 40th the country. If IU chose this kid over JD just because he wanted to lock someone up 18 months before the 11 season then Crean should be tied to the stake and roasted.

  • walton

    I am not really sure why either. Yeah – you are quite demonstrative with your negative comments (which I am sure is part of the problem), but I do agree with some of your points and I am usually on the side with some other people on here that express their concerns more than others. Maybe just go easy a little and explain you concerns with a little more perspective from the person you are arguing with. Don't go jumping off of any bridges now either – IU will be fine!

  • marcusgresham

    Dead on on the recruiting beyond the top-tier guys. Look at the NFL draft and it echoes that sentiment—how many guys do you see listed as “4th-5th round talent” who go 2nd or 3rd because they fit the scheme?

  • marsh21

    Oh no, you see Kelin and IUfanPurduePhD want kids like this because they can lock them up now. It's the only kids who will come to IU by their logic.

    Let's all lay down our hands and let the 2 and 3 star kids come to IU and be transformed into great players who will win a Championship.

  • Hardwood Wizard

    Funny, you would be shocked if you knew my roots and how much I love this program. Judge me all you want MillaRed, I know who I am and what I care about.

    I wish I could give some serious insight to where I get my info or what exactly causes me to question, but I will protect those people involved.

    MillaRed, while you are in Wisconsin try to dig up the cold hard facts about CTC at Marquette instead of whimpering about Bo Ryan. He had some success, but see what is out there about his recruiting tactics and the amount of pressure he puts on his recruits. He is relentless, by the book and very ethical, but many kids are scared off.

    Sorry that I have resources and have some scoop.

  • JerryCT

    A good example Walton was that I had the chance in PR and NY to ask him a question , up close and personal and I asked the same question each time. ” Coach, what do you think will be our team indentity this year , what will we be known for ?”

    He said, and I believe he was honest, ” I donot know but I am really trying to figure it out “. If I could have followed up I would have asked ” so what are you starting with ?” or “what is your best guess ?”. I was left with maybe an honest answer but no understanding of how he was addressing the issue ……….. a little frustrating

  • MillaRed

    There you have it. Dearest Inside The Hall readers, I give you the infamous 4guards.

    “Protecting your sources” Good grief. You are 4guards alright.

    For those of you that want to see this walking popularity contest, head over to The Hoosier Scoop and see it for yourself.

    Look here Hardwood, this will be the last time I respond to any of your crap. GO A-W-A-Y.

    I'm out!

  • JerryCT

    Marcus – funny as it sounds Moore did not do too badly and it was funny to watch. Almost a Cirgue du Freak kind of act. Hulls did not do so good on the 1-3-1 .

    My play by play lineup analysis showed that Dumes made a consistent “+” difference while Hulls was a net “-” ………… but get this ……….. only for roughly the first half of the season.

    After halfway , say Iowa, those lineups were about the same with maybe Hulls a bit better by EOY. It was rare however to have JR and Dumes playing many minutes at the same time, which is why I kept calling for it because they cause havoc on defense and usually we could not get stops.

    The last few games are what most people actually saw …….. the Elston lineup was doing well.

    In case you try this it is very difficult, I am warning you. you have to go through each possession and substitution and keep track of score when entered and score when leaving.

  • JerryCT

    WSJ did an analysis of top HS recruits vs top draft picks in NBA and NFL. Batting avg is not good. Less than 38% in NBA and worse for NFL. It turns out the NHL does the best job of indentifying talent that endures

  • JerryCT

    hardwood – can i ask you a Q ?

    What do like about the team, the coach, the players, the recruits , the facilities …. anything ?

    This might help us see a different side of you …….. kind of balance you a little in our minds.

  • JerryCT

    Voila ! Emailing Alex now. When I donate I feel I am donating to you guys as well.

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    marsh: I never called you an idiot and I wasn't calling you an idiot; people calling other people idiots–whether in real life or on the internet–is something in which I don't engage, especially over trivial things like sports and recruiting. I disagree with 4guards 90% of the time over on Hoosier Scoop, but I've never called him an idiot. Civility is sorely lacking in our society, so I try to balance the scales. Even calling Purdue fans idiots was just a joke; I'm getting my PhD from Purdue, so I'm obviously just joking around–lest I myself would be one of those idiots! πŸ™‚

    Equating pursuing Jeremiah Davis with joining the war against the Axis is a stretch–a huge, ghastly stretch. Read what I've said above: “I want JDavis first and foremost” and “I hope offering this kid will turn the heat on JDavis to choose [IU].”

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    I'm not arguing that IU should pursue unranked, 2-star nobodies from Canada; all I'm saying is that people get too worked up over rankings and stars. I WANT JDAVIS! Furthermore, according to various sites on the interwebs, Stevie Taylor hasn't even been offered by IU. Again, I hope/think this is just Crean trying to turn up the heat on JDavis.

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    I never said that Orton didn't have talent, all I was trying to get across is that five-star status doesn't translate into instant dominance. Have you read up on the draft, though? Orton is largely regarded as (paraphrasing here) “a mystery and a project with upside.” Like Hayward, he's riding his team's success to draft status. Furthermore, most suspect that it's Orton and Bledsoe that were a large part of UK's terrible GPA, so even if he wanted to come back, he'd likely have to sit out the fall semester… why sit out when you get a million dollar signing bonus in June?

    I'm not sure why you keep trying to insist that I implied Orton didn't have talent…?

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    I'm not saying I wouldn't have taken him, all I'm saying is that even 5-star kids don't often blow your mind their freshman year … esp. with numbers like his and being one and done … I'd rather have a 3-star that stays 4 years than a 5-star that stays one… but I'm all for us landing JDavis: a 4-star that stays 3 (or 4?) years.

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    CT, it's guys like us that would've let the Nazis win…

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    Dude … never said that; reread my above comments. At two separate points I said that I want JDavis “first and foremost” and that I hope we offer this kid just so JDavis will choose IU.

  • IUfanPurduePhD

    And just to be clear: I don't want Stevie Taylor instead of JDavis. I like him as a back-up plan if JDavis chooses MSU, but JDavis is who I want Crean to continue pursuing. He needs to put in time with Taylor if JDavis chooses MSU so our back-up would actually come to IU, but in no way, shape, or form do I want Taylor over JDavis.

    Hopefully there's no way for you to misinterpret that.