Five takeaways from Indiana’s loss at Seton Hall

  • 11/15/2017 9:38 pm in

Indiana kept it close for a half on Wednesday night in Newark, but the Hoosiers were beaten soundly by Seton Hall in the Gavitt Tipoff Games at the Prudential Center. The 84-68 loss dropped the Hoosiers to 1-2 this season.

Here’s a look at five takeaways from the loss to the Pirates:

· Indiana shows progress: A 16-point loss is nothing to celebrate nor is it anything to be satisfied with inside the IU locker room. But through three games, it’s becoming clear that Indiana is a team with plenty of room to grow. Wednesday night, at times, was a step in the right direction.

In its first road game and with two freshmen in the starting lineup, Indiana battled back from early adversity to take a lead late in the first half. The Hoosiers trailed by just one at halftime.

There was a grit and energy to the performance that wasn’t visible in the Indiana State game. Archie Miller told Don Fischer on the postgame show that he was proud of how hard his team played in the first half. Miller has stayed consistent in his message that this team will continue to improve over the course of the season. The first half fight Indiana showed was definite improvement from the performance the Hoosiers had just five days ago.

· Turnovers not proving easy to shake: In two exhibition games, Indiana showed significant improvement from last season’s turnover woes. Through three games, it’s clear there’s still a long way to go.

Indiana turned it over on 26 percent of its possessions on Wednesday night. For the season, the Hoosiers are turning it over on 22.7 percent of their possessions.

Seven of IU’s 18 turnovers in the Seton Hall loss came from Josh Newkirk and Robert Johnson, the team’s two senior guards. Juwan Morgan, a junior, had three. Given its small margin for error offensively, Indiana isn’t going to beat good competition throwing the ball away on more than a quarter of its possessions.

“Two or three, or even four of those in the first seven minutes in the second half were in transition when we had numbers or got a rebound or a stop and threw it in the seats,” Miller told Fischer on the postgame show. “Just some carelessness, to be honest with you.”

· Freshmen come up with strong performances, again: After Devonte Green and Juwan Morgan missed practices leading up to Wednesday’s game, Justin Smith and Al Durham Jr. were inserted in the starting lineup.

In his postgame comments to Don Fischer, Miller said the staff decided that the guys who got the reps in practice would be rewarded with the start.

And although Green and Morgan had positive moments off the bench, Smith and Durham Jr. are showing they are clearcut rotation guys at this point. Durham Jr. had 10 points and no turnovers in 29 minutes. And Smith, who had a team-high four turnovers, had 10 points and four rebounds in 31 minutes. Playing heavy minutes in a tough road environment will be valuable down the line for both IU freshmen.

· Delgado dominates matchup with De’Ron Davis: A key matchup entering Wednesday’s contest was Seton Hall senior Angel Delgado against Indiana sophomore De’Ron Davis.

Delgado, an All-American candidate, won the battle easily. The Dominican Republic native finished with a double-double (19 points, 11 rebounds) and IU had no answer for his aggressiveness at the rim.

Davis, meanwhile, fouled out after logging just 15 minutes and scored just four points with one rebound. On a team with thin frontcourt depth, Indiana can’t afford to have Davis in foul trouble or with that little production.

· Green’s strong first half shooting performance: One of the primary reasons Indiana was in the game at intermission was the strong shooting of Green.

Although he finished just 4-of-9 overall from behind the 3-point line, Green was 4-of-5 from deep in the first half and scored 12 points in 14 first half minutes.

With Johnson and Newkirk now a combined 7-of-25 on 3s this season, there’s a clear need for better perimeter shooting. On Wednesday night, Green provided just that.

(Photo credit: Vincent Carchietta-USA TODAY Sports)

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  • sarge

    AD has more than proven himself capable. But I agree with Ole Man that he is still getting his feet wet. I could definitely see him in a starters role if things don’t change by the conference schedule.

  • SCHoosier

    Probably unfair to call the Delgado/Davis go a “key match up…cause only Delgado showed up. Frankly…our first half would not have been that good had the S-Hall coach run his offense thru Delgado down low like he did to start the second half. I think The big guy was thrown two entry passes in the first half. IU had no answer for him and it was silly for the Hall coach not to go to him more often. Rob was assigned to defend Rodriguez..but the kid was too big and strong for him. I saw progress..also saw 8 reasons why Rob and Josh should now come off the bench.

  • Oldman

    Loving the way the youngsters are doing but still critical of RJ and Newkirk, our senior guards…..those turnovers are absolutely ridiculous…..Still thought RJ’s penetration in the 2nd half was great and Newkirk came of the bench and got aggressive and hit a couple shots…..This oldman would like to see some shot fakes, pass fakes, follow a 3 pointer, and more of the defense we saw in the first half.

  • Arch Puddington

    As long as we are going with a 3-guard lineup, there really is no “RJ vs. AD” debate. But as I noted, the pack line defense calls for more size than we typically have on the court, and I’ll bet Archie would KILL right now to switch to two guards. This team is neither shooting the three very well, nor defending the three very well, nor keeping its TO’s under control. At full strength, CH helps in all three areas. And if he does indeed return at full strength, a two-guard lineup becomes possible. Only then would the “RJ vs. AD” debate really matter, and we won’t know the answer to that for at least a few more games. In the meantime, it is clear that AD and RJ will both get plenty of minutes.

  • Arch Puddington

    Without meaning to beat a dead horse, this is exactly why I think that CH’s return is so vital. None of our guards can handle a big three (unlike, say, Victor Oladipo, who routinely and effectively guarded bigger wings), and even against another three-guard team, more length on the wing is critical to the pack-line defense. If CH returns at or near full strength, either he or JS could play the 3 and still leave us with a forward in reserve. Might not be necessary against all opponents, but Seton Hall will not be the only team we play this year with big wings. Even allowing for improvement over the course of the season, I just don’t think we will find much success with three guard rotations.

  • pcantidote

    The point was about Durham being the one to take his minutes. No one saw THAT coming.

  • TomEke

    Deron Davis started the game with a nice face up basket against Delgado. I continue to be impressed by the variety and effectiveness of his post game. Thru 3 games (small sample size), he has missed 4 shots in 65 minutes — he’s shooting 79% from the field, which is nearly 43% better than his FT%. IU should be feeding this guy until he shows he is anything other than unstoppable when he touches the ball in the post. Other teams should be fouling him until he proves he can hit free throws. DD is tied for 4th on the team in shot attempts with JN behind Rojo, DG, and JS, and in that group, only RoJo, who I wish would be more aggressive also, shoots the ball fewer times per minute played.
    I’d still like to see CuJo get more of a chance. I’ve seen a lot of people say he looks lost on the court, but he has the second lowest turnover total on the team thru 3 games, and only DD and AD turn the ball over less per minute played on the season. I have no proof of this next statement, but I think his problem is “timidness” at this point resulting from him not wanting to make mistakes which might cause him to be pulled from the game. It always feels like this guy has the shortest leash of anybody on the team, while when it comes down to it, he doesn’t make as many mistakes as a lot of people credit him for. And on the effort side, Kudos to this kid for having IU’s only block of the night against Seton Hall.

  • sarge

    I do love the +- as well, its a metric. But you can’t just look at one game because it isn’t 1 on 1. There are 4 other guys on the court that can influence the stat, whereas other stats reflect mostly individual performance.

  • sarge

    I love all 3 of these guys. AD has been great as a freshman, and I love the seniors. I just hope they can return to full strength, healthy and impactful.

  • sarge

    Essentially everyone is a freshman. They are all learning the offense and defense, although you would think that our upperclassmen would still be leaders.

  • Sherronhasaheadache

    Ithought a couple of DD’s fouls were pretty cheap calls, let em play

  • Sherronhasaheadache

    AD should start and JN come off the bench

  • Ivan Renko

    facilities aside, KU currently can offer much more than IU. almost guaranteed conference champions and sweet 16/elite 8 run every year at a MINIMUM.

    IU won’t contend for another BIG10 ship for another 3 seasons, not to mention an optimistic hope of being a regular tourney threat thereafter

  • zoldirtybird

    Delgado is a tough matchup for any team but I thought we could have done a better job matching up with Rodriguez. Smith and Morgan should have been going after him the whole game. In the first half when IU found a rhythm, Rodriguez single handedly kept Seton Hall in the game. Got to give him credit though, just a really good player. Overall, Morgan, Davis, and Smith did not spend enough time in the same 5 and this would have provided the best chance defensively against Seton Hall’s best lineup. Hopefully Colin is back soon and he can add a little bit to the frontcourt mix. I think this team will actually be better off going “big” so it can keep pace defensively and try to utilize the versatility of Morgan, Hartman, and Smith. Yes, it risks foul trouble but this team is vulnerable regardless. As has been stated, Josh Newkirk needs to be a bench role player. He kills the team on defense (slow first step, gets beat off the dribble consistently) and does not create anything on offense in a high level game. Definitely encouraging to see Devonte and Al rising to the challenge. As far as guys on the team who can initiate the offense and create in a pinch, they are it. RJ just needs to be the off guard and he needs to shoot when he’s open. He’s been tentative thus far and I suspect he’s respecting coach Miller’s instruction to make the extra pass. Time for him to attack. His defense was decent last night but he seemed to be on the wrong end of several cheap calls.

    After seeing the first 2 games, this performance has me surprised and encouraged. Hoping for a moment when it alls comes together.

  • weitrhino

    DD’s second and third fouls were determining moments. The second foul away from the basket with just 2 minutes left in the first half sat him down. HIs third foul early in the second half sat him down and that’s when Seton Hall got busy. We desperately need DD to stay in the game long-term.

  • weitrhino

    I agree JN and RJ should come off the bench until a sustained level of aggressiveness is displayed from both — while hanging onto the ball. We have freshmen alternatives who won’t have to unlearn old team habits and who look impressive.

  • HoosierOne

    Thanks! At least there are 1 or 2 people on here that understand the importance of the stat. 🙂

    In hockey they only score 3-4 goals per game on average and a lot of coaches believe it’s a critical stat….You just have to factor in the variables…..a lot of the NHL coaches don’t count it on empty nets or power plays/penalty kills because that’s obviously an anomaly. Just like if RJ or JN are playing with all bench players that should be taken into consideration.

    My thought is the only individual stat in basketball is the free throw. Almost every single other stat involves the spacing, play, coordination, and responsiveness of 9 other players.

  • weitrhino

    I’d make a case that a couple of DD’s fouls were instrumental in the loss. His second foul came with just 2 min left in the first half about 25 feet from the basket. He sat. His third foul early in the second half also saw him sit, and that’s when Seton Hall really cranked it up. Though DD certainly did not win the Delgado match-up much of that was because he was not in the game. When DD was out Delgado was let out of his cage.

  • Jimmernoe

    1) It seems so weird for me when RoJo passes up open, rhythm wing 3’s. It just seems like he is having a real struggle finding his offensive stride, which is completely understandable given the shift in philosophy.
    2) With a little more evidence, I stand by my thought yesterday that JS needs to find his way into the starting lineup. Seems like he makes a sound play that gets us a good look every time he gets a touch. Showed some nice midrange promise as well.
    3) It makes me cringe when the old habits (random lobs, quick contested threes) come out at inopportune times on offense. Really struggled to capitalize on breaks and turnovers. It seems like our guys are caught in between mindsets. Also if we catch a few passes under the rim, we may keep this game within striking distance. Frustrating. Overall, I feel good. Obviously a long way to go, but I love seeing things being improved game by game.

  • inLinE6

    Not discounting the joy of winning championships in college, but we all know the #1 picks in last two drafts didn’t even make the tourney. College is not a destination for these 1-n-doners. Besides, KU is going to win another big12 champ with or without Langford anyways, how would that make him better than he already is? Leading Texas Tech to a championship would certainly mean something more. LOL.

  • PalmettoHoosier

    After my drive into work today listening to Mike and Mike, I sure am glad IU fans are talking about basketball today instead of “off court” issues either foreign or domestic.

  • calbert40

    I thought the team played very well in stretches last night, especially in the 1H. For me, the issue going forward is what to do with our senior backcourt, specifically JN. Last night, he had 4 TOs and 3 Assists in just 20 minutes. For the season, he has a 11:8 Assist to turnover ratio, and 7 of those assists came against Howard. Take that game out, and he’s upside down on that stat.

    Hopefully, he can learn to operate within the new system, but the early results suggest that maybe he should be on the court for fewer minutes.

  • Ole Man

    His second and third fouls were “ghost fouls”. Delgado is a heck of a player and doesn’t need the help he got from the refs last nigh.

  • IUBizmark

    I respect that. On the other hand, I think UK fans would love to hear someone from IU say they’d rather beat UK than go to a national title game. Sounds similar to the guff we give Purdue. “IU is your Super Bowl.”

  • Vernon Aldrich

    We know it’s been on Archie’s mind…

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    my biggest takeaway is the youngsters are outplaying the upperclassmen. i hope they continue to get increased minutes

  • sarge

    There were 3-4 very obvious homer calls for Seton Hall that got me fired up last night.

  • Vernon Aldrich

    Collin is definitely missed on the floor.

  • sarge

    Loved Lyndon Jones!

  • dwdkc

    Need to give our defense more credit for that first half. We were extremely active and aggressive and put Seton Hall back on their heels after they opened up their lead. The D is designed to make it tough to get it down low and I noticed us overplaying him in the first. I think we just weren’t quite as dialed in as the 2nd half started which killed us.

  • sarge

    I love any kind of stat and I believe they can all be evaluated to pull information out. They don’t tell the whole story, and that is what the eye test is for which happens to be everyone’s favorite evaluation.

  • Sherronhasaheadache

    my takeaways
    AD and JS should be starters
    DD needs to play better position D
    we need ch back like yesterday
    the team fought hard, especially in the first 30
    RJ and JN need to play like the freshmen, without fear and of course those silly turnovers

  • Oldguyy

    Not fair to say Davis didn’t show up. The zebras took him out of the game, and only rarely called any of Delgado’s fouls.

  • Arch Puddington

    1. Don’t care what Kentucky fans think. The rivalry between IU and Kentucky basketball used to mean something, and it doesn’t bother me a bit to say so.
    2. Having said that, I’m not saying that ANY victory over Kentucky would be better than going to the title game. Just that one. Beating them in the tournament a couple of years ago was fun, but not meaningful like the WatShot game. That game was unique, and neither it nor my reaction to it are likely to ever happen again short of a Final Four.

  • sarge

    I think to add to what you are saying, many Hoosiers know where they were at and what they had been doing the night that shot went in. It was an amazing game.

  • Ivan Renko

    i know it happens to everyone, but DD really got screwed on a couple of those foul calls… it’s hard for anyone to play D on a player like delgado, but i think we could’ve limited him a lot more if DD played 20-25 min instead of just 15.

    side note – i was at the game, and when DD fouled out the students either didn’t know or simply don’t do the “left, right, sit down” chant that most fan bases do haha. the atmosphere overall made me appreciate much much more what we have with our fan base and Assembly Hall

  • Ivan Renko

    fair point with fultz and simmons, but that’s certainly more the exception than the rule. I suppose I can’t speak for 5-star recruits, but like you said their goal is to go to the NBA, not college. but for that required college year, these kids value playing for a proven/veteran coach who runs a program with a winning culture AND the opportunity to start or play 20+ min per game.

    Romeo would certainly start at IU from day 1, but if he is also a lock to start at a place like Kansas, it’s hard to argue against it. it’s obviously more fun winning than losing, and IU has a few years before we are going to be consistently winning again.

  • IU_theoracle

    Completely agree and if anyone wants to complain about calling out specific kids, the entire reason the careless play occurs is because Crean never made these players accountable for their actions. It doesn’t take a four year player to understand thrown a lob pass 5 feet over the head of your teammate who is being double teamed is a pretty stupid decision.

  • Zach

    I hate to be that guy, but the referees completely took us out of the game at the start of the second half and our guys just couldn’t overcome it. Obviously senior guard play and turnovers played a major factor as well, but here’s some fun stats:

    Seton Hall were called for 10 fouls and IU were called for 5 in the first 17:45 of the game.
    In the next 16 minutes, Seton Hall were called for 3 fouls and IU were called for 16!!!

    Incredible that the Pirates were able to completely stop fouling for 16 minutes. The disparity in contact allowed on each side of the court was mind-blowing. It was decided that De’ron Davis wouldn’t be a factor, then Delgado got to grab and shove his way from there to a double-double.

    Not saying we would have won if the game was called evenly, but we damn sure would have had a chance.

  • StudentHoosier

    6. Am I reading this right….? Did Josh Newkirk, a fifth year starting guard, get to the foul line ZERO times? That can’t be correct, right?

    7. Are we going to finish below .500?

  • kaponya44

    I guess some just need it spelled out in great length to grasp and ultimately comprehend.

    +/- is over-rated because it completely dismisses intangibles. It is based on the stats alone .

    Example:

    You are a stat sheet filler, and I am not…

    I am not

    If you score 20pg , commit only 1-2 TOs per game, get 10 boards, and 7-9 assists per game. You are talking a great +/- on average.

    Then, if I have 0-2 per game averages in of all of the above, but I come out much more physical than you, getting in the right place to keep you away from the spots you typically put up your numbers from…If I have better timing , and I’m in better shape (thus more energetic) ,then wear you out physically and mentally frustrate you from wire to wire , even if I do nothing but go minus 3 in the foul column by knocking you on your behind 3X- yet it leads to your +/- falling to a 0, I have effectively had more of an influence on the outcome than all of your calculated stats coming into the contest, without the need for my other 4 to do nearly as much. That is because I am a much greater presence on the floor, and the opponent teammates see this happen to their star and their confidence wanes leading to a clunker.. It doesn’t matter what ranking . what stat ranking , what number is higher .Winners win because winners have intangibles that dominate, mentally. .

    Guarding you , I would probably influence more outcomes in scrimmages in practice most nights , in a same team scenario too. Who do you think would get those minutes when they mattered if the coach was worth a lick?

    Both of us, because if I did this to almost everyone I faced, I would be no less, perhaps more essential to that line up if your +/- was bad against me ,but good vs the opponents on the schedule. The reason is you would not have to hit those numbers night in night out for the likelihood of victory to remain high if my minutes were high. Coaches like to game plan – aka- strategize a way for their team to set the tone early and ride it to a W.

    Therefore, if I’m building a team, THAT ability to take the opponents best player out of what they want to do is what I prioritize having at least one of in my starting lineup because the fluctuation in the +/- of the remaining players from game to game becomes so much less conducive to the final outcome – which is what matters most to the vast majority of people who follow sports.

    Sounds to me like you just want to be right , here, as well .

    Google won’t win you this one, in fact it will lose it for you because in the end most people , and history itself only care about the team that wins.
    .
    I hope this was even more exhausting because that underscores my underlying point ! Ironic you used the word “exhausting” in your semi-snarky response to Ole Man. I just repeated what he summarized 1st , and also much better in brevity than I did .

    THAT is what he hoped you would use your imagination on.

  • Jtime

    Youth. CJ, AD, DG, whomever but our until our senior guards start playing like upperclassmen I’d like to see the younger guys on the floor.

  • kaponya44

    Somewhat recent favorites who didn’t have to score or much else to win the mental battles. thus giving their team a greater chance out there? Chris Reynolds, Dane Fife. AJ Moye, . They devoured softer minds by being consistent about their work..

    I loved .hated Brain Cardinal too, because he made guys look over their shoulder non-stop 40 mins per if need be.
    Purdump could run Cardinal out there and he would either frustrate or flat out demoralize his matchup and it caused collateral damage to the rest of opposing offenses.

  • HoosierOne

    Last night I’d rather have Justin and AL on the court over RJ and JN…..the discrepancy in +/- on top of all other stats, my eyeballs, and my glial cells only reinforces it.

    Example: If all other player are constant….when player X is on the floor we tend to lose our lead, and when player Y is on the court we pull ahead which one do you choose?

  • mharv2631

    I definitely would have brought to the refs attention.

  • TomJameson

    I can believe those fouls made a difference, and could also have been a part of the reason for the loss. But ultimately this team has to learn how to win on the road, and overcoming those kind of foul problems is part of the game.

  • TomJameson

    Or at least call it the same at both ends of the floor.

  • cbags05

    Don’t hit the panic button here. The guards are still figuring out how to get him the ball effectively and need to hit shots to space the floor. He’s adjusting to a higher work load and last night ran into a beast of a matchup, away, with homer calls. He will improve as the rest of the team improves.

  • Outoftheloop

    “Only 4/9 on 3’s”. Give me a break! That is 44.44.%! Use your brain Mr Bozich, that is good shooting. 4/5 is unconscious shooting. No one could expect that to continue.

  • cbags05

    Taken out of context, yes. But he finished by pointing out 4/5 start, implying the obvious streaky nature of his shooting. But I agree, a little bit aggressive to say “just”.