POTB 190: Phinisee commits, schedule discussion and more

  • 08/21/2017 6:32 am in

Podcast on the Brink is back for a new episode with host Jerod Morris of The Assembly Call. The show is available weekly.

In this edition of the show, Morris and Inside the Hall editor Alex Bozich discuss the commitment of Robert Phinisee, IU’s schedule release and more. Among the topics discussed:

· The commitment of Robert Phinisee
· The relationship between Phinisee and Archie Miller
· Thoughts on Phinisee’s game and whats stands out
· What he’ll need to work on before arriving in college
· Thoughts on the Grant Gelon story over the weekend
· The schedule release last week and what stands out

And much, much more. As always, feel free to drop the show a note at [email protected].

Listen in the audio player below, download the episode or subscribe via iTunes.

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  • sd chuck

    Great podcast guys! Love everything about Archie and his staff so far! Everything he spelled out is just what he is doing. Recruiting class, I thought would be critical, he and the staff have really don a great job. Schedule is also improved, again great job! If we go back yo what Archie first said, he didn’t want those large recruiting classes. So, maybe he just holds those schollys for next year with only one available, unless a certain 5 star wants to come to IU. Really what a truly great hire! Hang on it’s going to get real exciting! Can’t wait for the show to begin. If you can’t tell I’m all in with Archie!

  • Thanks for listening.

  • N71

    One of the more interesting parts of the segment was the conversation on where to go from here with regards to recruiting. Setting aside the Romeo topic my focus now is the post position, if we don’t land anyone for 2018 then to me Isaiah Stewart becomes critical for 2019. I’m not sure if his transferring to La Lumber means anything for us or not but it can’t hurt having him closer to Bloomington. He reminds me of Nick Ward to a degree, he’s 6’8″ or 6’9″, 4-star, but 240+ and doesn’t appear to be overweight. Someone like that can play the center position in the Big Ten and set a tone.

  • VOXAC30

    The kid is 16, 6’8″ 243 lbs and built like a monster. How is that even possible the kid looks like he eats sugar coated nails for breakfast – all kids like sweets:) At 16 he is built like Anthony Mason

  • VOXAC30

    Great Pod Cast Jerod and Alex I love your point on Friday Games. I have made this point before but most states don’t care so much about HS Basketball other than places like Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, Kansas, and a few other states. Especially in Indiana HS Basketball is still a really big deal and it is a big mistake by the B1G10.

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    nice to hear positive things about this kid, and glad we got a solid pg for the future. the uncomfortable truth is we simply didn’t have a floor general last season and it showed. for this season, i’m hoping JN does a better job filling that role. he was playing really well toward the end of the season, so i think there’s reason to feel optimistic.

    upsetting to hear the stuff about GG. i think the guys have it right when they say brutal honesty is the best policy, and that he really should have never been recruited by any top D1 school. CM was not at fault, he simply did his job and did it well.

    where i disagree with the guys is i don’t think TC saw anything particularly special with GG. i think he missed on a bunch of 4-star guys, so tried to appease the angry mob by grabbing an in-state kid, and then following it up with the obligatory sales pitch. it was just such a disservice to GG(NOT referring to current coaching staff), and i’m glad that kind of recruiting practice is over with.

  • Arch Puddington

    I agree with your take on this. CTC heard the criticism about not getting in-state player and reached for a player who wasn’t able to play at B1G level. I saw Gelon play in one of the All-Star games against juniors, and was stunned. His inability to defend, to handle the ball, or otherwise contribute was shocking. Of all the players on the court that night, I only would have picked him ahead of one (a 5’9″ junior who was not an All-Star as a senior). I did a bit of research afterward, thinking that he must be a lights-out shooter who just had a bad night. He wasn’t. He averaged less than 15 points a game as a senior, including just 38% from behind the line.

    That same game I saw Kyle Guy (McDonald’s All-American, now at UVA), CJ Walker (Florida State), and Joey Brunk (Butler), not to mention Juniors Kris Wilkes (UCLA), Jaren Jackson (MSU), Malik Williams (Louisville), and Paul Scruggs (Xavier). Gelon may be a great kid, and I wish him well. But that whole recruiting sequence was a bloodbath for IU, and rightly contributed to CTC’s dismissal.

  • Kyl470

    I think people are forgetting about the timeline of events with the whole Gelon thing. When Archie first took over we were oversigned by two players. Then OG and TB announced they were going pro and Colin announced that he was coming back so we were still oversigned by one. According to the story May 3rd was the day of the conversation and at that point JBJ had not announced he was going pro yet, at least publicly. Archie knew he was probably going to have to have a tough conversation with at least someone on the roster. I’m sure it was painful for GG to hear that Archie didn’t see him fitting in his future plans, but at least he was honest about it.

    I think a telling thing about GG though is that he ended up transferring to a junior college. I’m sure if any other major program would have offered him a spot he would have accepted it. It’ll be very interesting to see if Crean lands a job next year in a major conference and if so would he reach out and try to land GG again.

  • N71

    “Bloodbath” is a good way of putting it.

  • GatewayHoosier

    I disagree with our general need in these discussions to have characters who are either all good (in this case Arch) or all bad (in this case CTC).

    I think we can agree with Archie’s approach to player development and acknowledge the timeline challenges he faced while still questioning the decision to tell Grant during finals. Arch and the new staff are great – they’re not perfect.

    Likewise, CTC likely missed with Grant (though it’s funny to reach this conclusion after one yr when so many folks here clamor all the time for 4-year-players). But 1 – no one was happy when Crean signed Zeisloft, and Nick ended up being a HUGE part of our program, and 2 – I think CTC decided after 2013-2014 that he would never again enter a season with a lack of shooters. His offensive system had enough problems as-is, but it absolutely doesn’t work without shooters and spacing. GG probably never becomes a key contributor, but can we try to resist the urge to paint every story as heroes & villains?

  • scooter

    The big ten tournament being played in ny is just wrong. I believe it’s the only reason Rutgers is in the big10. It’s all bout money and now most of the big ten fans will have to travel much further to attend

  • bball at nick’s

    As critical as I was/am of Crean, the fact that Archie chose to dismiss only one of Crean’s players and new recruits speaks well for Crean. So I guess I’m seeing the glass half-full. I don’t care about the drama of how Gelon was dismissed. There probably are as many versions of the story as there are people involved, LOL.

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    you’re conclusion, based on my citing a very specific recruiting issue in a single post, is that i’m of the opinion that TC is all bad? and CM is perfect? i certainly didn’t come anywhere close to saying that, nor do i think that. i’ve been plenty critical of TC, but i’ve also cited plenty of positives.

    and i think my argument is absolutely valid. this type of recruiting happened over and over, and i have a major problem with it because as i said, i think it’s a huge disservice to these kids.

    getting to your other ridiculous comments…

    yes there is value in 4-year players, but jeez that doesn’t mean recruiting d2 (maybe) talent. if you want proof, look no further than this year’s roster, which is chock full of high level seniors (go ahead and cite TP as the exception if you want, i could use a good laugh).

    regarding NZ, it’s a silly argument to say that the entire hoosier nation was unhappy with him joining the team. if anything, i’d say it was quite the opposite. and to compare NZ, a senior transferring from another D1 school, to GG? c’mon man

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    is TC still CTC if he lands any one of these players? i think there’s a good possibility he is

  • Arch Puddington

    I’m sure WhatsUpKnight2.0 can speak for himself, but as one who shares his opinion, I have a couple of thoughts:

    1.Your complaint about casting CM as all good and CTC as all bad is a total straw man. Nothing in the post to which you are responding even implies such a thought. It was a specific critique on a widely reported issue. I presume you are conflating this particular comment with things other people have said, and are responding to WhatsUpKnight2.0 as though he had said them all.

    2. You are of course entitled to your own take on why CTC offered Gelon, but if you don’t think that CTC’s recruiting failures were part of the reason for his dismissal, you haven’t been paying attention. Over his last two years, at least five top 50 players from Indiana, including (I think) four 5-star players, got away, plus a couple more in the top 100. Saying that he brought in Gelon as a sensible approach to making sure he had good shooter ignores the entire context of that decision, notably including the fact that Gelon wasn’t even a great shooter (under 39% from 3FG as a senior). There were far better shooters in that class, he just couldn’t get any of them. So whether offering Gelon was a purely political move meant to appease fans, which I think is largely the case, or simply the best he could do after losing out on a championship worth of other talent, the bottom line is the same. It was an offer that reflected the long-term decline of his recruiting, which was a direct cause of his dismissal.

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    nicely done arch. you tend to say what i’m thinking way better than i can! so feel free to speak for me whenever you want! 😉

  • Arch Puddington

    That is something that I and others actively worried about. I defended CTC for a long time, and of course still think of him as a good man who brought us back from the abyss. But beyond a certain point it was apparent that something had gone badly awry with his recruiting, not to mention the chronic problems with bad defense, sloppy play on offense, etc. It’s hard to let go of a guy who brings in talent, even if his record isn’t great. Had CTC landed, say, a class of Wilkes and Jackson, I don’t see any way FG lets him go. Best in the long run that that did not happen.

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    well said. i also think KW woulda kept him employed. but especially considering who we got as TC’s replacement, my honest opinion is also that the team is better off with him going to UCLA. i think it had to be a combination of last year’s disastrous season, along with missing out on KW (who for a long while was thought to be a sure bet) to get to the proverbial last straw.

  • Outoftheloop

    Grant and his family had to see the need to transfer from IU if he were to continue to play basketball early after Crean was fired and Archie hired. Both sets of coaches were available to assist his search for a good program to move to for his talent level. Both sets of coaches have extensive contacts and networks of associates in the college game to assist Grant in finding a good program. So what happened? Why did Grant settle on such an unknown junior college? What about Wabash? Valpo? IN St? IUFt Wayne? U of Indy? There are many more!

  • Arch Puddington

    It’s a bit of a quibble, but under the athletic “Bill of Rights”, neither CM nor any other coach is entitled to simply dismiss a player. Scholarships are now multi-year deals, allowing (I suppose) for misconduct. I haven’t listened to the podcast, so maybe there is more than I know at the moment, but I don’t think Gelon was “dismissed”.

  • GatewayHoosier

    Arch P is right, I screwed up and should have made clear I was responding to reactions to the story in general (including Alex B, whose work I love, on Twitter) and not just your comment, so I’m sorry and deserve all the criticism you and Arch include. Bad netiquette on my part. The only part I’d push back is that I was replying to a direct quote: “CM is not at fault.” I think there’s a ton in the GG story to say it’s not mostly his fault but hard to absolve him completely like that unless we just want to believe Archie is our savior.

    I stand by my Nick statement entirely and would only say people should go read the comments of the ITH story from when Crean signed him. Some of the same criticisms: “his 3FG% was bad,” “he only scored X amt. at Illinois State,” etc. And while 18-year-old Grant wasn’t Nick, that’s precisely the point. He was 18. Could he have been Nick as a 20 or 21-year-old? Maybe not but hard to say.

    But again, my bad for projecting onto you a general comment.

  • bball at nick’s

    Correct! I was using “dismissed” in a more generic/general sense. Didn’t mean to add to the drama, LOL.

  • WhatsUpKnight2.0

    no need to apologize, that’s what the message forums are for. some good ol spirited back and forth.

    being said, i think once again you’re making an incorrect assumption about the general sentiment toward CM. i think you’re confusing hope and optimism with blind loyalty (or i guess i should say faith since you referred to him as a savior). in this particular case, i don’t have a problem with how he handled it. i assure you, i’ll have no reservations doling out the criticism as i see fit in the future.

  • bball at nick’s

    Saviors sometimes resort to tough love, no? LOL.

  • Arch Puddington

    i should say that I was one who was unhappy with the Nick Z. signing. Not exactly to my credit that I could not understand it, cause WOW did that work out well.

    At least for me, the difference between Nick Z. and GG was that I had seen the latter play. It was apparent in every way that he wasn’t B1G ready. I never saw Nick Z. play before he got here, so I was just talking out of my you-know-what on that one. I’ve tried to be a bit wiser since then.

  • IdahoHoosier

    Regarding the Gelon situation, I do feel for the kid to an extent. I was in a similar situation (not at the same level) years ago where the coach basically told me how he felt about me and promised I wouldn’t be given a chance to change it. I definitely felt a certain amount of unfairness and that something had been given to me only to be taken back. I have no idea if Gelon decided to express his feelings or someone close to him or whatever, but whether or not he ever belonged at IU athletically, we have to feel for him. Of course he could’ve chosen to stay and enjoy his IU scholarship without playing ball, but he made his choice and all is well. Hopefully he has moved on and we IU fans have too! Just adding some perspective to humanize the situation a bit.

  • Larry Brown

    He saw a 6’5″ kid who could stroke 3s. Who wouldn’t want that? Have you forgotten Nick Z already?

  • E Foy McNaughton

    I’ve read the article, listened to the pod cast, and reviewed the time line- and here is what I think happened:

    1. Archie had a frank conversation that basically said GG didn’t have the talent or potential to ever play at IU.

    2. Archie did the math at the time, which meant we were oversigned and there wasn’t going to be a roster spot for GG in that circumstance.

    3. GG’s parents really wanted to convince Archie that GG could play (there had been rumors that GG’s parents had connections with IU trustees and CTC offered in part due to those connections).

    4. Archie had no interest in talking to GGs parents about playing time at IU.

    5. Time passed and Archie’s evaluation was generally agreed by other coaches (thus no other D1 offers).

    6. GGs parents are bitter and now complaining.

  • cbags05

    !!!!

  • sarge

    Nice post, he definitely eats nails. And nice comparison to AM, kid is nuts! I thought the same watching Thomas Bryant. Let us hope some TB love helps us and we land him.

  • VOXAC30

    Let’s hope!

  • sarge

    I respect the hell out of this thread, nice points made all the way around. Gotta agree on almost all of it. Feel terribly for GG and I thought he would be a NZ. Love NZ! Archie was in a tough position, he did the best he could. I love CTC but, ArchP is dead on about his terrible in state recruiting and coaching flaws. Honestly, Fred Glass deserves some credit for pulling the trigger. I am glad we have new direction and that Archie is guiding us.

  • Outoftheloop

    Interesting scenario.

  • Outoftheloop

    With no defensive ability, no ability to create his shot, no ability to dribble, no ability to rebound, no ability to create for others, I would not want that player. Nick Z was a leader and a very hard worker.

  • Mark Bando

    Archie is recruiting tough players who wanna win. It reminds me of Wisconsin, but with more players that are highly ranked. Its the perfect formula as far as i am concerned

  • Matt Humphrey

    He is going somewhere he can play instead of sitout a year. When transferring to a JC you are eligible immediately.

    This is one situation where I think neither side did anything wrong. Hopefully he improves, works hard, and finds himself a great fit next year.

  • Arch Puddington

    I don’t disagree with your call to remember that real people are involved here, but the fact that other than IU he did not receive offers from even mid-majors (IUPUI, Youngstown State, and Furman were some of his other offers) tells you what a reach this was to begin with. I’m not critical of him for accepting the offer, but if he wasn’t aware of what a long shot he was, then he was just deluding himself. We’ve had walk-ons as good or better than him, including some on the roster last year. It might have been worth a “what the heck” experiment, but the apparent attempt by either him or his family to discredit CM for stating what is unmistakably the case ends my sympathy for him/them. Most people, me included, would LOVE the chance to play even one year on the Indiana basketball team. It was an honor, and he would be a healthier, happier person if he was just thankful for it and moved on to the next thing.

  • Larry Brown

    Sewn it was a leader and a hard worker, are you saying that Grant was a follower and was lazy? Because all the negative things you just apply to Grant could also be applied to Nick, but Nick was very successful at IU. My belief is that crean had a system and play of looking at kids like Nick and Grant that allow them to flourish. I mean, even in his limited time last year you could tell that Grant was a great shooter. I recall a lot of other players for IU over the years who were also great Shooters and his size and we’re not great athletes, people like Pat Graham or Todd Leary. But what is most disappointing and disturbing about the account, if it is true (and one must always remember there are two sides to every story) is the allegation that coach Miller just left him hanging without any alternatives. You know that crean would have been on the phone trying to find another school for the kid. He did that even for kids who got thrown off the team. But again, we might not know the whole story and I’m sure coach Miller might have a different side to present

  • Outoftheloop

    Yes I was implying that Grant was a follower and not a leader, and that he was not a “gym rat” living at Cook Hall to get better. The lack of determination and perseverance shows in his attitude towards finding a new “home”. You only get 5 years to play 4, and 1 year was gone. Grant needed to spend 6 hours/day pestering both the old coaches and the new to help him find a good fit. You don’t wait until June and rely on your parents to “save the day”.

  • Larry Brown

    Sorry, I did not realize that you were so intimately involved with the program as to know How much time guys spend in Cook Hall and how their leadership skills are after a year in the program.
    Using your metric, I guess Jordan Hullls Yogi we’re both not leaders, since by the end of their freshman years they had not shown much leadership.

  • Outoftheloop

    You have that wrong! I have no information not available to you. But I do follow IU sports avidly. In my IU sports following I have never seen any report about Grant being a leader or assertive or a “gym rat”. For both Jordan Hulls and Yogi Ferrell, those reports were plentiful even in their freshman year. I think that you are wrong. Both Jordan and Yogi did show leadership capabilities and assertiveness as freshmen.

  • sam

    Nice one… Sugar coated nails…. ?

  • VOXAC30

    I had to think of something that represent him as a kid still because he sure isn’t built like one

  • Larry Brown

    That’s interesting, because I vividly recall Tom crean lamenting the fact that Jordan Hall’s was not a leader yet. In fact that was when you’re was a sophomore. But how about another example? There was this 6ft 2in point guard back in the early 2000s. In his freshman year he did not show any leadership qualities and it was rumored that he like to drink beer so I suppose someone like you would say he was lazy. Hayden play except in mop-up time and as The Story Goes one of his teammates even told him that he was not good enough to play at this level. People said he was too slow and too unathletic. And the following year he was dropping 30 points on Notre Dame and the year after that he was the starting point guard on IUs final four team.
    Bad player of course was Tom Coverdale and he most certainly would have sad player of course was Tom Coverdale and he most certainly would have met your criteria for being worthy of being removed from the team after his freshman year.

  • Larry Brown

    By the way, I once met a scout who work for Bobby Knight and Bobby sent into a ballgame ones to watch a certain potential recruit. He told me the story of how he returned from the game and told Coach night that the best player on the floor was this little guy named Scott Skiles. Knights reply was, “Not interested. Too small.”. So Scott Skiles burned IU for the next four years just like Matthew Graves did at Butler, after Mike Davis had no room for a skinny supposedly unathletic guard.
    Coaches can Be wrong. Some coaches relish the idea of developing a player where is another coach does not have patience for it

  • Outoftheloop

    “So I suppose someone like you”, give me a break! Factually you are the only poster to call Grant “lazy”. I said that he was not a “gym rat”. Most would take that to mean “living in the gym at all times”, or “excessive about going the extra mile”. I will stand by that. I do not recall the history of Hulls as you do. I recall many stories about him “being in the gym” working on his game. I do recall Crean lamenting the team’s lack of “experience” (a very different quality from “leadership”) during Jordy’s freshman year. I also remember Crean lamenting his physical shortcomings against bigger, stronger players (especially after the defeat to Ole MS). You feel very free to read my mind, “your criteria for being worthy of removal from the team”, when I gave no such criteria. I don’t believe that a coach can or should “remove” a player from the team except for team rule violations or university misconduct. Archie did not remove Grant! He told him that as Head Coach he could never foresee playing him, not even for “mop up” time. Grant was unwilling to remain on the team under those conditions. So he requested his release and received it. I find your lack of honesty “amazing”.

  • Outoftheloop

    Grant was not “a great shooter”, neither in HS nor in college.