• Finally, an IU coach that gives detailed answers in an articulate, well paced delivery.

  • That’s Ottawa (Kansas), not the team IU will be playing Tuesday.

    https://www.geegees.ca/en/sports/teams/basketballm

  • Arch Puddington

    My feelings are not mixed in the slightest. It is ridiculous on all levels. These players are no more responsible for what their teammates have done than Crean himself is. Less so, in my opinion. Asking guys like Nick Zeisloft, who seems to have had no part in any of the shenanigans, to abject himself as though he were to blame, is a cheap and frankly insulting attempt by Crean to save his own face. I HATE his non-stop harping about player leadership, and I HATE the fact that he blames 20 year-olds for the behavior of other 20 year-olds. The coach himself can’t control them. Some of them continued misbehaving even after one of their teammates nearly died and the entire program was in peril.

    Silly and shameless.

  • srhise

    [facepalm]…. I was like, how did we lose to these guys and why would they play so many games!

  • SilentBob

    I’d feel better about it if the coach too participated in this since it was kind of his idea it sounds like. Maybe he did, but the article didn’t say he did, so I’ll assume he didn’t. But I don’t think it’s a big deal either way. I too hadn’t heard of it until now, so it’s not like it’s something that’s going to get a lot of attention this season.

    It’s always gentlemen like to apologize to the people who you possibly let down. Even for the kids who haven’t got in trouble publicly, I’m sure all of them have made mistakes whether it be related to drugs and alcohol or otherwise. But again, we don’t know about those things, so if you’re gonna make them do it, it’d feel better if the coach did it too.

  • straight no chaser

    Man you just saved me a rant, but this definitely preps me for the season, lol. This is exactly the kind of culture I hate. Rule by shaming, basically.

  • straight no chaser

    Mixed feelings? Lol, you are too kind IUMIKE. It’s absolutely disgusting, and a sign of weakness as far as I’m concerned.

  • SilentBob

    I feel like disgusting is a bit of a strong word here. I’d probably describe it as a poorly executed fatherly attempt to humble his children. I remember an event that occurred in my life as a child. I used to be a very competitive and hot headed young cuss before a series of health complications and good parenting humbled me. But anyways I was playing some peewee “AAU” basketball and my team got absolutely destroyed. In fact I put the only points on the board for my team that day. And afterwards I was hot. When I went to my parents in the bleachers after the game I was saying all sorts of cruel things about my teammates. And although only a few people heard me, my dad made me go up to both my coaches, all of my teammates, and their parents and apologize for what I had said before he’d let me play again. It was painfully embarrassing, but it humbled me greatly. So from that story I can see the good intent in what Crean was trying to do. But as I said in my other comment, it would had felt more genuine if he participated in these letters.

  • straight no chaser

    What your dad did is different. It wasn’t an indictment of an entire tribe for the “sins” of a few.

  • sarge

    Wow, please stop with the negative rants. I appreciate your opinions, but the season is now, and we are a great team in my estimation. Are you guys trying to kill my vibe? Let the games begin, then you can give me some negative feedback I can appreciate. I think this team is capable of winning it all compared to the competition this year. Anybody excited still?

  • SilentBob

    No, but he did indict himself. He participated in this with me, even though the fault was all mine. If Crean had made only the publicly guilty do it, that would be much more shameful in my eyes.

  • straight no chaser

    Listen, if I say more, it’s gonna get ugly (in terms of what will come out of my mouth). So, I will respect sarge’s request that I shut up. LOL.

  • IUJeff

    OMG. Amen. How refreshing to watch and listen to such an articulate and intelligent coach. First presser I’ve watched in a long time. Hope to hear a LOT more from this coach in the future.

  • SilentBob

    Hey man we all got different views. I don’t mean any disrespect at all. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. Honestly, more than anything, I’m just saying I don’t expect it to have much of an impact either way.

  • BC Hoosier

    I don’t really understand why you think this is so ridiculous.
    You discipline individuals of a team when they make a mistake. When individuals keep making mistakes, you discipline the team. After awhile leadership among the team is formed and those leaders ensure the “shenanigans” stop.
    Not sure why you think it’s “cheap and insulting”, for a leader to discipline their subordinates.

  • sarge

    Sorry, but every post on here was negative towards our coach, when I was excited to see what everyone thought. I’m not mad, just disappointed really.

  • straight no chaser

    Crean was same old Crean, lol. I don’t have to love Crean to love our team! And I’m glad he’s letting other coaches do some more talking. I liked Judson, and he’s more focused and doesn’t ramble, but I’m not as confident as he is about the new shot clock. I don’t think we are the “fast” team he says we are. We’ve discussed this in the past. We tend to move fast, but often spin our wheels. But this year’s team might be different. I’m excited about the games. So, cheers!

  • straight no chaser

    When “individuals” make mistakes, you discipline the “individuals”. Where did you come up with the rule that the whole team has to pay for the mistakes of the few?

  • BC Hoosier

    Shaming…really. All I’ve heard is CTC needs to be tougher, put a boot in their rear end, run them into ground, do something different because what he’s doing isn’t working, and so on. He makes the team put in additional conditioning sessions, visit cancer patients, and write letters to former players to get them to view the program and their actions as something bigger than themselves and it’s shaming.
    Everyone has an opinion and I respect yours, but we definitely see things differently. You say shaming, I say a form of discipline.

  • straight no chaser

    I keep going back to that article to make sure it’s not something from the Onion. LOL. I’m still at that stage of disbelief, frankly.

  • BC Hoosier

    As I said above, you discipline an individual of a team for their mistake. They keep making the mistake, you discipline the team.

    Have you ever been on a team? Team discipline isn’t some new concept I or CTC just created. Half the policy changes in the work place are a form of team discipline. Someone at work does something stupid, company changes policy of said stupid act, and everyone working for the company pays the price for that one stupid employee.

  • First, we don’t know all the details of what’s been going on in the program. We don’t know how widespread the issue were, we only know about the players who were caught. Setting aside the question of whether or not the behavior itself (public drinking, illegal possession, etc., none of which are terrible crimes but all of which are against team rules) warrants serious repercussions, we just don’t know who all was involved with it.

    Second, I was in the Army at around the same age as these kids are playing basketball. While of course the stakes are higher in the military, and the training proportionally more brutal, there are nevertheless similarities. One of which is this: in a close-knit group where everyone shares in the consequences of individual actions, it sometimes makes sense to provide incentive for the group to police their own and to remind each player that his actions affect the team.

    That’s what this kind of thing does–it’s not “punishing” innocent players for the actions of the guilty, it’s reminding them that they’re a team and will share the consequences of any inappropriate actions. When I messed up in basic training and the platoon was forced to do pushups along with me, they were sure to remind me to be more careful next time and I myself felt the responsibility for their having extra work to do.

    That actually brings teams closer together, and I don’t see anything wrong with it.

  • InTheMtns

    Hi Mike. This isn’t a new story – remember Alex wrote a story about Max Bielfeldt writing a letter to A.J. Guyton (and A.J. made the letter public)? Alex wrote the story back on September 10th – http://www.insidethehall(dot)com/2015/09/10/a-j-guyton-shares-letter-from-iu-forward-max-bielfeldt/.

    That letter was part of the letters mentioned in this story. Seems like old news to me, but this is the second time this past week that I’ve seen stories about it again.

    Seems like the majority of folks here on ITH liked the idea behind the letter on September 10 but today, well not so much.

    I have mixed feelings about it, too. I tend to agree with Arch that players can’t really be held responsible for the actions or behaviors of other players. They can certainly try to influence each other toward positive behavior but I don’t think they are to blame when others actively chose to do something wrong.

    At the same time, BCHoosier is absolutely right that it is a long-time tradition for coaches in most team sports to sometimes discipline all the players on a team when one player breaks the rules. The idea is the rule breaker doesn’t like to see his mistake cost his teammates, and if that doesn’t make a difference, then probably peer pressure will come to bear to not break the rule again since it cost everybody.

    I think the whole point of the exercise was to get these young men to realize they are part of something much bigger than just themselves in the present moment.

    I’m ready for some basketball! I know you are, too!

  • because there are three i’s in team

  • teenage students are neither employees, nor a part of your top-down system. always trying “get tough”, especially when that fails repeatedly, seems like a lack of real leadership, to say nothing of imagination. some struggle with this idea, but that’s not really my concern.

  • straight no chaser

    Why what did you do Mark to get your platoon in trouble? LOL.

  • I’ll take the fifth, I think. Although seriously, it was a common tactic, and it worked.

  • straight no chaser

    That combination of righteousness and militarism is kinda creepy to me, to be honest with you.

  • BC Hoosier

    Those teenage students are grown men. Part of going to college is getting an education and learning how to be an adult.
    Not sure how it’s my “top-down system”, it’s just the world we live in.

  • straight no chaser

    All ITHers should write a letter to the ITH mods apologizing for your behavior and your blue hair!

  • straight no chaser

    Can you send me that “how to be an adult” manual? Nothing else has worked for me! And can you kindly do a 100 pushups in penitence for my ITH sins?

  • TomJameson

    I’m excited sarge! I can hardly wait for tonights game (to be televised tomorrow on BTN).

    I’m getting a little tired of “hearing” people living in the past, and in such a negative way. I’ve actually found myself just skimming some threads and leaving them entirely. I would prefer to not let negativity rule me, to live in the moment, and have positive thoughts about the future.

    No, I’m not burying my head in the sand and ignoring bad things that may happen, but I’m not going to dwell in the past, nor am I going to beat any horse to death.

    GO IU!!

  • Vernon Aldrich

    I’m with you guys… GO BIG RED!!

  • Ole Man

    His blue hair is the KY fan who attended the IU/KY game at AH when we upset them with the Wat shot. Right Clyde?

  • Ole Man

    Whatever TC has been doing hasn’t been working. And ya know what? His moves with Holt were very unpopular with the team. I’m not sure what has been accomplished by this “tough love” or the letter writing.

  • IUMIKE1

    Yea, I remember the story about Max writing a letter to A.J., but I don’t remember it being mentioned that the whole team composed hand written letters to several different former individuals that were associated with IU somehow. I was under the impression that it was something that he simply chose to do on his own. Maybe I missed the part in the story where it told of everyone else doing the same thing with someone.

    My mixed feelings mainly come from me wondering if Crean did anything similar himself. I understand the, we are really one big team and one person doing something stupid or against the rules doesn’t just let himself down, but he lets down those around him down as well, and punishing everyone for just one’s missteps, will increase the chances that it doesn’t happen again, thinking. I see pros and cons both from using that method in this instance. I think you will see better results from using it in places like the military, it certainly works there, and very well, in that kind of setting. I think a “form” of it has a place in a college bball type setting, but not in the way it was applied in this instance.

    Now, working with the premise that we are all one big team, isn’t Crean part of the “team” ? I see it as, he IS part of the team and should have written some people as well, cause while he may not be guilty of the same kind of transgressions that were mainly responsible for him feeling the need for this to take place, he is far from completely absolved of having never done anything that could be seen as letting himself AND the team down. If one takes that approach then I think any coach, that was honest with himself, would be hard pressed to say that they had never did anything that could be seen as that type of thing. If he did undertake writing others and it was not made public, then kudos to him, cause then he is practicing what he is preaching, and that isn’t a subtle dig at the degree to which he values, and puts out there, his religion. I know a lot of the time what the coach does, and doesn’t do, is not made public, but I feel strongly that in this case had he done something like that it would have been made public by him or someone else, and if he did, and it wasn’t made public, it should have been. People should know that he didn’t hold himself above doing what he had the players do and if he didn’t then shame on him.

    YES, I am sooooo ready for some real bball as well !!!!

  • IUMIKE1

    I won’t bore you with cutting and pasting my reply to InTheMtns, above as he was the first to reply to my comment.

    On another note whether we agree or disagree on this, as I do with all when I first become aware of it, I extend a big thank you to you for your service to our country. If I’m aware of you (or any other current or past soldier) in a public setting your next cold beverage of choice is on me.

  • IUMIKE1

    I tell you what I told MC, rather than cut and paste my reply to InTheMtns, as he was the first to reply to me, I’ll just refer you to my reply to him, which was pretty similar to yours.

  • IUMIKE1

    Just so there isn’t any misunderstanding, your next cold beverage of choice would be on me in a public setting, or ANY other kind of setting as well. lol

  • MK

    I actually like the idea

  • MK

    Which players did you speak to that told you how unpopular Crean’s moves were?

  • straight no chaser

    Have you ever had loyal friends, or been loyal to any?

  • MK

    I love when people get so emotional on these boards. I asked a pretty simple question. I didn’t like Holt’s dismissal more then anyone else, but I’m also not representing my opinions as facts.

  • While you’re entirely correct about Crean as the coach and part of the problem (and solution), there’s also just the simple fact that he needs to hold himself outside and above the fray. He needs to take ultimate responsibility, and then kick butt as necessary.

    To go back to my own personal anecdote about my time in the Army (and thanks for your kind words there as well!), the drill sergeant might very well have contributed to whatever mistakes we made and he was ultimately responsible for everything we did. But don’t think for a second that he didn’t keep himself completely separate from and above us–he had to if he wanted to maintain control.

  • BC Hoosier

    My point exactly. What he had been doing, disciplining the individual, wasn’t getting his point across so he chanced his approach.
    Personally, I HATED the decision to dismiss Holt, but if CTC truly felt that was the right decision and something had to change, I may not agree with it, but I understand it. Leaders make tough decisions all the time. Their decisions may be unpopular to the masses, but if they think it’s for the betterment of the team, they have to follow through with those decisions, regardless of the backlash that may occur.

  • Ole Man

    Don’t be a smart-A. Numerous players have spoken out to say that they miss Holt.