• CreanFaithful

    He didn’t say that. He said he could have done more. He didn’t indicate whether that was on him, the coaching staff or both…

  • IUMIKE1

    Without going into your comment as a whole, let me just chime in on one part of it, the one that is the most over the top, Trey Lyles. It’s been pretty well established that it’s not a case of him dropping us, but rather Crean backing away from him. I for one am glad Crean did that, besides the fact that we don’t do that kind of thing at IU, if caught we probably would have gotten the death penalty or something closely resembling it. There are no secret videos or recorded phone calls, or anything of that nature, that I know of, but it is pretty much common knowledge that the people surrounding him were demanding certain things that would clearly have brought very tough and hard hitting punishments from the ncaa if it were to ever be made public. TL was a helluva instate bball player and had given his verbal commitment to IU long before the two parted ways, and Crean was tickled $hitless to have gotten it, even if it was just a verbal one. If you accept just that one fact, does it not make sense that something very big went down for Crean to abruptly sever the relationship with surgical precision. He ended up at pUKe, hmmm imagine that ! That kinda fits the scenario doesn’t it ? There are several other things that point to that being exactly what the case was, but I won’t take the time and space to go into them here unless you feel like the parts that I have put out there is total BS.

  • IUMIKE1

    Please read my response to eville87. While you’re right about instate loyalty no longer existing that aspect probably had little to no effect on how it all went down.

    By the way, good comment upvote given.

  • IUMIKE1

    LOL !

  • He said “I was held back.” Not “I held myself back.”

  • I wasn’t able to post the links, but just google “noah vonleh i was held back indiana”. He spoke at length with his home town paper. He did not feel like he was properly developed. Many scounts loved his physical marvel, but noted that his skills were underdeveloped at IU. Putting a top HS prospect into the NBA lottery is not (in and of itself) good player development.

  • MillaRed

    Noah Vonleh was one of the nations elite rebounders before he stepped on campus. He also shot threes, something our all American Cody didn’t do in two seasons.

    The result is a lottery pick. He was a stud from day one.

  • b_side

    Except last year, we were above average on defense and rebounding. Last year everyone said the staff couldn’t teach offense. Now it’s the opposite.

    Fact is, Crean can teach both sides of the ball well. I blame him for not recruiting a well-rounded team. Though some of that onus is on Fischer’s homesickness since we al expected him to man the middle this season knowing there was a good shot of Vonleh leaving early.

  • Exactly

  • eville87

    No I understand his family wanted to be involved but somehow it’s weird that it’s OK at uk. I Have a feeling after watching how we couldn’t get Zeller or Noah the ball he changed his mind. Not to mention the transfer of Fischer or the lack of development from Perea. Crean does a good job with guards and wings but front court players not so much. But you know what MIKE it doesn’t matter because he will be gone after this year. We will live and die by the 3 and it won’t be enough to save his job.

  • eville87

    Please bring your pro Crean comments. As I said before the fan base is fed up with just making the tourney. (Which isn’t going to happen) I enjoy the dialogue. We r never going to get back to where we need to be with him as a coach. the scary part is I’m some hick from Southern indiana and a majority of the state agrees with me. I have been watching OUR TEAM for 26 years and never have I been so embarrassed or seen a team so unprepared in my life. I hope I’m wrong I hope they win 20 finish 5th in the big ten and sign Bryant. But I’m an adult now and don’t live in fantasy land and realized that Crean has to go…..so up vote that.

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    Nice try on the rebuttal, but you presented several personal opinions as facts: 1. What numbers/stats did you use to come up with IU being “above average on defense and rebounding”??? 15 overall losses/11 in the B1G do not indicate an above-average anything, imo.
    2. “Everyone” didn’t say that about the staffs’ inability to teach offense–maybe the players were unable to implement the plan. 3. What;’s the source of your “Fact is Crean can teach both sides of the ball well” comment?
    4. Fischer’s mid-season exodus was untimely. I cannot help but wonder for how many more seasons some fans will blame his departure for the team’s inability to protect the paint. HMP has been in the system for 2+ years and the game is still an adventure for him. No guarantee that LF would have been the force some believe he might have become. He might have become Richard Mandeville II.

  • b_side

    1) Kenpom. 127 ranked in offense, 47 in defense. 47 is above average considering there are about 350 D1 programs getting ranked. We were 65th in the nation in rebounding,
    4th in the B1G. Both numbers according to Sports Reference. That good enough for you? Do those numbers really reflect your ridiculous statement that nobody on staff can teach the fundementals of defense and rebounding. Try harder next time with your “personal opinion.”

    2) I agree last year he had the wrong players to implement his offensive system. He needs floor spacers and we had few consistent options. Like teaching defense/rebounding, a coach needs his players to execute.

    3) I already demonstrated that he can coach defense/rebounding. Crean can coach offense too. 2011-2012 and 2012-13 are overwhelming examples given their top 5 Kenpom rankings. While we weren’t top 5 defense/rebounding last year, as I said, we were above average overall and the B1G.

    4) The whole Mandeville comment is laughable given that you harp on me for having a personal opinion. We could argue hypotheticals all day long. Team chemistry sucked, the kid missed his girlfriend and he’s about to suit up 20-30 min from home.

    None of this is to say I’m thrilled with Crean right now. But your POV has no merit (in my personal opinion which is of course based on some pretty reputable sources vs. your expert armchair analysis).

  • CreanFaithful

    Please link the article or video? Because you are coming up with quotes that I have never heard and I did followed Noah’s stuff. Otherwise these are just more “quotes” that weren’t actually said.

  • IUMIKE1

    “but somehow it’s weird that it’s OK at uk ” I don’t know if it’s that you think that what his handlers wanted in exchange for him signing on the dotted line was all ok and above board and that Crean just for whatever reason wouldn’t provide it as well or if you think that, regardless of what it took to secure his signing, if pUKe provided it, we should have offered to provide it as well. Please don’t tell me that you believe that they run things on the straight and narrow down there ? While I would have liked to see both Noah and CZ used differently at times getting them the ball wasn’t the problem. I don’t remember exactly where it was, so call it a lie if you so wish, but when CZ was at IU and that seemed to be a point of contention on ITH someone linked a place that showed the percentage of our possessions where he touched the ball and the percentage of times that he received the ball while being posted up deeply and the percentage was quite high and surprised many, including myself because I was one of those that thought that we were not getting him the ball near enough let alone while he was in the right places. Granted you can never really have a player of CZ’s magnitude possessing the ball too much but he actually was receiving it quite often. The same goes for Vonleh, his percentage was not as high as CZ’s was but it was still an acceptable percentage. Now would I have liked to see them do some things better or differently once they had the ball, yes, especially CZ shooting a midrange jumper once in a while and NV passing back out of a double or triple team effectively, but every player has things that they could, and eventually will, do better, especially when they have only been there for one or two years and regardless of who is coaching them. As far as Fischer transferring and the lack of development from HMP, well, you hurt own argument using those two things because Lyles, or should I say his handlers, had already decided pUKe could do the best job of having their, totally against every rule, demands met and that was waaaay before Fisher left and well before we seen that HMP still had a long way to go.

  • eville87

    Hey there buddy ol pal…. please give us the inside scoop on the ncaa violations that occured during Trey Lyles receuitment…..smh. The point I was trying to make is we have done a poor job up to this point in getting or playing 1 just 1 big man that is ready to play at the D1 level this year. I’m excited for the up coming games against better competition. I hope we surprise some people but if we don’t and lose a lot it should be intresting to see how much pressure gets put on Glass. Thank you Mike and have a great day.

  • IUMIKE1

    First off, my reply to you was totally about the recruitment of Trey Lyles, not whether or not Crean should be let go and I don’t really know how my views on TL’s recruitment justifies you labeling me as some kind of pro Crean fan. I didn’t go there but since you bring it up I’ll go there with you this one time. I wouldn’t classify myself as pro Crean or anti Crean either one right now and since the end of last season I don’t really think that I have commented in a way that equates to me being seen as the totally pro Crean fan that you seem to unfairly and quickly count me as. Was I pro Crean at one time, absolutely and in a very big way. While I don’t consider myself to be a hick I am also from the southern IN area and am well aware of how a lot of IU bball fans feel about the current situation. Some of their concerns are also my concerns and I feel like are totally justified. However, I don’t feel like it is fair to figure in the first 2 or 3 seasons of nuclear waste clean up into the equation when considering his body of work as a whole and whether his body of work up to the beginning of this season warrants his firing. I have adopted a wait and see approach until a lot more results from this season are available to be figured into the overall picture and up to this point it doesn’t look too promising, but never the less that’s how I’m proceeding on this particular topic. If this season yields the same results as last year than, yea, I’m all for putting together the search committee. I’ll tell you how, IMHO, I see things playing out if things look a whole lot like last year, barring a complete and utter failure record wise this year, he is going to be the coach next year at IU, justifiably or not, that’s what I see happening. I see that being what happens because the AD is already on record as backing him 110 %, and while he would probably never admit it, some of the reasons that he is on record in that way is because 1) he knows that the buyout in his contract, at the end of this season, is more than he is willing to pay, thus the 110% backing 2) if it comes to the point where a new coach is hired it will allow him to tell prospective hires that he went all out in backing Crean even when a lot of the fan base wanted something different 3) it allows him the previous two things I’ve mentioned plus if by some weird chance Crean pulls a great big fluffy rabbit out of his hat it makes him look he totally expected it to happen and that’s why he didn’t fire him.

  • I tried to link but ITH forum blocks them. Just Google “noah vonleh I was held back indiana.” You’ll find plenty of links of his direct quotes about feeling like he was held back at IU.

  • It was an interview with the Hutton eagle tribune in new Hampshire

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    1. Not familiar w/Sports Reference site, but since you used Ken Pomeroy’s numbers to “support” parts of your above average comment: IU’s “above average” AdjD rating placed us 8th in the B1G in 2014. 5th in 2013 and 7th in 2012. I suppose you could say that he can teach defense but being 8 of 12, 5 of 12 and 7 of 12 isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for whatever ability he has in that area. No question the play of Zeller/Oladipo/Vonleh was largely responsible for those rankings. Doesn’t “prove” that the $3 million man taught them how to play. Please keep believing he can teach “D” as the season unfolds. I urge you to pay particular attention to how TC’s above average D schemes work against Pitt, Lvl, Butler & Georgetown. Heck, they might even hold Savannah State Grand Canyon and New Orleans scoreless–if none of them drive the paint or shoot the “3” well. The fact that he tolerated virtually NO court movement or floor spacing last year is 100% on him. Perhaps he keeps forgetting that there’s this thing called the bench upon which players who are unwilling or unable to execute the game plan can sit and watch others play the game. RMK thought it was a great motivator…but what the heck did he know about O or D???
    3. I was NOT among the everybody who said anything about TC’s ability to teach offense. I think I might have been in there among those who commented that he cannot make it work.
    4. I said that Fischer COULD resemble the 2d coming of Mandeville. Heck, he might have become an All-American during his time here. We’ll just never know. I do believe that to continue calling him out as one of the people even remotely responsible for the state of IU’s program right now borders on the ludicrous, absurd, lame and/or unfair. I keep seeing elite D1 teams lose players for any of several reasons and somehow they manage to stay elite. Guess NONE of them ever had a player get homesick and transfer…that’s our domain. And if team chemistry sucked last year, perhaps TC should have owned it and moved on–he put the team together. Think Fischer may have never felt the love and moved on because of that? Who knows? Who cares at this juncture?
    5. Some people rely upon statistics to either support or “prove” a point. I prefer to think of them as a useful source which reflect tendencies and likelihoods. Statistically speaking, even KenPom’s data is not a source I’d rely upon to place a bet on any team. From 2010- 2014, the D1 championship games featured #1 vs #9, 9 vs 33, 1 vs 4, 1 vs 4, vs 8 vs 11. Picked winners 3 of 5 times…60% accuracy rate. If you bet the farm on each game, you’d be homeless after the 2011 tournament.
    Your seem to be perfectly content to consider your opinions to be supported by some “pretty reputable sources”. I happen to feel that collectively or individually, none of them are reliable enough to constitute irrefutable proof of anything. Sabermetrics didn’t make the SF Giants World Series Champions any more than KenPom data helped UConn win it all last year. ONBTW, I don’t usually sit in an armchair.

  • b_side

    So basically Crean gets no credit for the results/stats/rankings when Zeller, Vic and Vonleh played? Got it. I suppose we should do the same when Benson/May/Zeke/Alford played for Knight. Let me guess, Knight would have hung a banner in 2002 with “his” players.

    We’re done here. See you on the next thread.

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    Wow, If only I were half as smart as you think you are. For openers, I said that the play of Zeller, Oladipo and Vonleh was largely responsible for the kenpom rankings. I merely said that those ranking don’t PROVE that the $3 million man taught them how to play. Using your keen deductive reasoning skills, YOU determined that I said that he get’s no credit for the results…you get a mega FAIL on that one.
    Just in case you missed the start of the millennium, Knight wasn’t in Bloomington in 2002. Mike Davis was, but there was no banner to hang. Maryland beat IU in the finals.
    Now we’re done here.

  • Gecko

    You are correct, the season is only 5 games old, and now the schedule is getting tuff. Not many cream puffs left. Now we will see what we are made of. I hope for the best. BUT ??

  • b_side

    Go back to your original statement:

    “Nobody on staff is capable of teaching the fundamental principles of rebounding or defense or this team wouldn’t be so lacking in those skills.”

    Do you really think it still holds merit? It’s a gross generalization focusing on the shortcomings of this year’s team (only). It’s not as Crean has changed his staff other than Martin for KJ.

    As for 2002, you clearly missed the reference. I’m well aware Knight was fired in 2000. I was there. The exaggeration I was trying make (since you deem Knight to be a demi-god), is that he would have taken the exact same group of players to the championship and won (instead of Davis losing to MD). I jokingly tried to lump you together with that segment of the fanbase, but instead it went right over your head like most of this discussion.

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    There is no point in trying to continue a discussion with you, but I’ll make one more effort and try to be a little more simplistic so you can perhaps better understand the points I tried to make. 1. You cherry pick statistics from a site to “prove” a point about TC’s “above average defenses”. 2. I offered a rebuttal that finishing 8 of 12, 5 of 12 and 7 of 12 in league play isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for whatever ability he has in that area. You conveniently ignored that. Defense and rebounding have been and remain a problem for every Crean team. It didn’t just start this year… 3. Your effort to bring RMK into the conversation in a rather obtuse way was a classic non sequitur! Have to give that one to you!!! Since you mentioned him, I don’t “deem” him to be a demi-God–you get a -1 on that assumption. I well remember that he also had some teams which sucked (record-wise, talent-wise and player personality-wise). I’m cannot say that he would have done better than Davis vs Maryland and don’t care if he might have done better with the 2012 team vs the ‘Cuse. Maybe McCracken would have won, maybe Watson, Sampson or Davis would have won. The reality is that none of those scenarios have bearing on or are germane to our discussion.
    On the very day this team finds a collective heart and displays solid effort and passion throughout the game, I’ve got a feeling that a lot less grumbling will be heard from the fan base. Future dialog between you and me may even become constructive and civil…:)

  • b_side

    Classic non-sequitur? Quick reminder, you brought up RMK:

    “RMK thought it was a great motivator…but what the heck did he know about O or D???”

    I jumped on your little fascination with him to prove that coaches can only coach, but players have to execute.

    Secondly, we’re both guilty of cherry picking stats: in your case only looking at the B1G instead of the complete season. So no, I wasn’t ignoring your numbers, but I want my stats to be comprehensive.

    How is defense a problem for “every” Crean team when they were 28 in 2013 and 47 in 2014 according to Kenpom? Again, Crean shouldn’t be measured only by his B1G peers. And Kenpom isn’t some site, rather a well respected statistician. The B1G is known for defense, even Northwestern can rank above us by just slowing down the tempo. Really doesn’t help them win any games.

    We can go back and forth all day. You want to keep playing “who gets the last word”, fine by me.

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    Drop in on some of them and see for yourself. Many have direct links which you can click on the ESPN NCAAM site.

  • HoosierHuckleberry

    I mentioned RMK’s use of the bench as a motivator as an example to indicate that no coach has to tolerate a player or players who will not or cannot follow a game plan. I recall that Zeke sat, Turner sat, Patterson sat, the entire starting 5 at Illinois one year…until they learned that he was only asking for their acceptance–not approval–of his style of play. Some didn’t buy into it and left. Others bought into it and well, that’s history. In today’s arenas, Ryan, Izzo, Groce, Matta, Donovan, Pitino, Calipari, Wright and Beilein can be pretty quick with the hook, too. TC not so much.
    I chose to focus on B1G stats only because that’s where IU prospers or suffers. No school hangs banners for their pre-season excellence or AP/Coaches Poll position. League play counts, and you’re 100% correct that these stats can be misleading. Every statistical analysis has an inherent flaw in that it can only indicate trends, likelihoods, possibilities, probabilities, and adjusted averages. I drop 30 on 1 team of midgets (little people if you prefer), get shut out the next 2 games because someone puts the glove on me and I now am “averaging” 10 ppg. The stats don’t tell the complete story. I never contended that TC didn’t contribute to the AdjD rankings of those teams–simply feel/felt that those numbers don’t “prove” that he can teach D; neither do they disprove his ability.
    I am not a big time follower of Kenneth Pomeroy or any other statistician’s site(s). As I said earlier, I don’t think kenpom stats helped UConn win the NCAAs and I’m pretty sure the SF Giants didn’t win the World Series with a team built on Sabermetrics.
    I may be one of the very few who was not totally disappointed with the early TC teams.

  • SilentBob

    Just looked that up. He said he was held back and felt he could do more. Perhaps he was upset with his own performance because everything else he has said about Indiana has been extremely positive. Or the fact the lack of dominant big men on that team didn’t allow him to show off his ball handling skills. Either that doesn’t mean his career was held back, probably just some of his draft stock. In fact playing the post the way he did probably was better for his career.

  • If you look at that statement in a vacuum, then yes, your interpretation is plausible. But that comment was made during the portion of the interview where the reporter talked about him being underutilized at IU. Being underutilized is not a situational or personal decision. It’s a coach’s decision. His response to “I felt like I was held back a little” in the context of being underutilized indicates that he put the onus on the coaching staff for why his numbers weren’t better.

    Sure, he could have just been making excuses to boost his draft stock at the time. Who knows?

  • SilentBob

    Problem is it’s not an interview. At least not the top result your google search yielded or anything in the first two pages. It’s an article that features one quote from Noah. Half the article is built around that quote, which would lead one to think it was taken wayyy out of context.

  • SilentBob

    Also it could be a roster problem. Not having the big men for Vonleh to spread his wings elsewhere.

  • Again, I’m not able to post a link, but search google for the Eagle Tribune article. The page has been disabled on their server, but you can still find it on the wayback machine via archive dot org. Relevant quotes:

    “Vonleh got the most out of his year at Indiana on court, in spite of some real restrictions placed on his game by Crean.”

    “I felt a little held back,” he admitted. “There was more I could do.”