Film Session: Analyzing IU’s turnovers

  • 12/24/2013 10:19 am in

Over the weekend, the Hoosiers posted high turnover rates in wins against Nicholls State (28.3%) and Kennesaw State (26.3%) and now stand 309th in the country in turnover percentage, per KenPom. A supercut of all of their miscues from Friday and Sunday are above.

Two games in a 13-game season present a small sample size. Still, there’s enough of a range of ways the Hoosiers turned it over from these two games that speak to their season-long issues with ball control.

A few themes in the latest edition of Film Session:

Troy’s happy feet

Williams has ended 23.5% of his possessions with a turnover so far this season, fourth worst on the team behind Devin Davis (28.7%), Stanford Robinson (23.8%) and Jeremy Hollowell (23.5%). ¬†Of the freshman’s nine turnovers from over the weekend, seven were all of the same ilk; Williams would look to make a move off the perimeter and either travel or lose the ball. At one point against Kennesaw State he tried a spin move and fell over. Later he dribbled the ball off his foot. (The other two turnovers were seriously ill-advised passes. One he tried swinging the ball from right to left on the top of the key to a covered Will Sheehey; he simply just didn’t look where he was passing before it was too late. The other came from another pass that has a low success rate — right wing to left block through a forest of defenders.)

Williams certainly has the athleticism to get by defenders, but there’s still a lot of cart before the horse to his game in that regard. Savvier Big Ten defenses are going to have it on the scouting report and it may continue to be exposed.

Yogi’s impact

Ferrell’s turnover rate is down from his final mark last season (24.5% to 19.7%). His improved shooting is also a plus. But with the ball in his hands so much, he’s bound to continue to make mistakes here and there. Ferrell coughed it up keeping his dribble in the lane over the weekend and also drew a charge trying to go coast to coast. (This is something Evan Gordon also did. If the defender is in front of you with room to get set and you’ve essentially run out of room to pass, they just need to stand tall and wait your arrival. )

Perhaps the biggest problem area from this weekend for Ferrell was the lob. It’s a home run play Indiana hasn’t had the best success rate on this season, either. Sheehey had a hard time hanging onto one against Kennesaw State. Later in that game, Ferrell tried a lob to Davis, who had no clue it was coming. It hit the front of the rim. Ferrell can be heard saying “go get it” (4:55 mark). But by then it’s much too late.

One other turnover of note against the Owls: Ferrell began moving up the court while looking backwards for an inbounds pass as he looks to push it up the floor (4:12). As the ball comes inbounds and Ferrell turns, a Kennesaw State defender has smartly entered directly in front of Ferrell’s path. The sophomore is off balance as he tries to move around him with a behind the back dribble and he loses the ball out of bounds. With Indiana’s penchant for getting the ball up the court fast, Big Ten opponents may try something similar on occasion to try and catch IU napping.

Telegraphin’ over the top

Indiana is making an effort to get the ball into Noah Vonleh. But there comes a fine line between making the smart pass and forcing the issue. Against Nicholls State, Sheehey got the ball on the left wing and looked to pass to Vonleh, who was sealed towards the basket. Sheehey stuck with it, never looking or moving elsewhere. By the time he decided to give it a heave, some backside D stole the ball. Hollowell did a similar thing with Fischer in the that game as well, one of the most sad-looking plays of the weekend (1:33).

The rest …

Davis’ turnover rate was noted above and he made a couple of bad decisions, including tip-toeing the left baseline with nowhere to go and trying to pass it through two defenders to the right corner (steal). Davis also badly telegraphed an outlet pass to Gordon and it was promptly picked. Sheehey got blocked at the rim a decent amount in the non-conference, but he was also flat out stripped on occasion, which can be seen in the above supercut as well.

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  • Brklynhoosier


  • MillaRed

    Guys I’m really enjoying this team. They are doing about as well as I thought they would. But these turnovers remind me of my 6th grade tri-county basketball team. We split into 3 teams because we had a lot of new kids playing. I called our first practice and ran a scrimmage to see what we had.

    Our centers thought they were point guards. Actually everyone thought they were point guards. The ball was everywhere. We took turns giving the ball to each other for a half hour. I spent the next 3 weeks teaching position and responsibility. Never really shot the ball. Without the basics you have nothing. We ended up with a 15-1 record.

    My point is, we don’t look like we know what we are supposed to be doing sometimes. If Devin Davis doesn’t understand that you do not throw an inbound pass 3/4 down the court while gaining zero advantage, he should not be in bounding the ball.

    If Yogi is not being taught that leaving your feet while passing is not a crime, he’s gonna jump pass. Will feeding the post when it’s not there. Troy not slowing down.

    This is not on the kids. This is a coaching issue. It’s been at lower levels, no higher than AAU, but I’ve coached enough to know this turnover deal is a coaching issue. Youth is part of it, not nearly all of it.

    One mans opinion. Merry Christmas!

  • Aiken_Hoosier

    Don’t disagree at all and I’m a (gasp!) Tom Crean supporter (oh, the horror!)…..

    All jokes aside, I think the turnovers are a product of a few major factors, including coaching. You are correct in that a lot of times, the turnovers seem to be a result of players getting caught in a weird spot in the offense and not really sure where the outlet is. It’s those times, when they look utterly confused, that I put on Coach Crean.

    But there are absolutely a bunch of turnovers that are just plain turnovers, too. They come from other origins like simple physical mistakes/lapses (Gordon dribbling ball off of foot on inbound; Hanner falling down on roll and Yogi’s pass going out of bounds), good defense (the pressure on Yogi’s inbound turnover), timing just a bit off (Yogi to Sheehey lob), etc., etc., etc.

    I fully understand your point and I’m not saying coach is without blame, because he certainly isn’t. But when you see back-to-back 20 turnover games, it just looks AWFUL.

    But the fact of the matter is, if you take away some of the simple bad physical lapse turnovers, you’re suddenly down to 14-15 TOs a game, which isn’t great, but doesn’t sound the alarm.

    Combine that with Coach Crean doing a bit better job of teaching the offense and game awareness, and I don’t think the turnover issue is too tall of a mountain to climb.

    And, for the record, I like this team, too…….They’re like the puppy you got that craps all over the carpet, but deep down you know, one of these days, that puppy is going to turn out to be a pretty good dog…..

  • Alford Bailey

    Alot of these turnovers were caused by just going to fast or forcing something that was not there. The game speed is still really fast for alot of these guys. I dont mind the lob turnovers I still think that could be some easy offense for this team.

  • MillaRed

    No doubt about it. Zero TOs is not achievable. I would take 12 with a young team. But 20 vs. cupcakes? Not cool. And it’s the “kind” of TOs. Just plain inexcusable at this level. And consistent which disturbs me. I think the 15 different lineups comes into play. The aggressive offense.

    But there are 5 a game right now that are just dumb. Please make them go away.

    And yes I like Coach too.

  • SCHoosier

    Well that was enuff to give you holiday heartburn!! Let’s see..TC says they are still not playing as fast as he wants them too… is our objective 30 TO’s per game? Playing fast is one thing..playing fast out of control is another. Apparently going to take a season for this young team to understand that. In the B-10..there will be more half court emphasis cause IU won’t be able to run whenever they want..that might even help the offense…and the TO’s?

  • BT

    Well said. As much as it’s great to see we have a lot of athleticism and interchangeable parts, maybe these kids need to learn one position well before subbing into two or three different spots on the floor. Considering the No. 1-ranked Hoosiers lost @ILL last year, I certainly have my hopes in check on New Year’s Eve, but nobody in the Big 10 is unbeatable. Even on the road.

  • Aiken_Hoosier

    Yep. There’s no way the whole 15 lineups thing isn’t a direct contributor to our turnover issues, IMO. That’s been frustrating for me to watch, too…..

    Even though these kids are year-round players, you can’t tell me that it’s not still hard to get into a flow and get comfortable when you come out on the floor. It takes a couple of minutes.

    In fact, I’m curious to see (and gonna start paying attention to) how many of the turnovers are committed by players who are in their first couple minutes on the floor after a substitution.

    I find if I keep my eyes and mind on small things during the game, it makes the whole situation a little less like waterboarding…..or, more accurately, whatever I imagine waterboarding would be like……

  • VanPastorMan

    Does anyone think the turnovers could be because of the many subs that are constantly being brought in and taken out? It takes a while for a team to gel. But since you have players coming in and going out all the time it makes it kind of hard.

  • Kevin Tolliver

    This is why Coach Knight almost never depended on freshman to play a major amount of playing time on his teams.

  • Kevin Tolliver

    You know its bad when you have 5 minutes and 42 seconds of turnover “highlights” in a 40 minute game. Wow.

  • Oldguyy

    Lots of very poor referee calls on this video, but I wouldn’t expect either the commentator or the usual commenters to realize it.

  • IULore

    Most of these turnovers are them trying to do the right things, but failing to execute.

  • IULore

    I was thinking the same thing.

  • IULore

    2 games were in that video.

  • Mila – CTC pushes players to get better. Players then either progress and build on their strengths or falter. TOs happen when they try to do too much. Troy is a good example. RMK used to make it abundantly clear what a player can and can not do. Two different philosophies. CTC’s philosphy works out fine when he develops a 9-10 man rotation with upperclass leadership. Yogi and Will will come down on players who are careless. This needs to happen soon. This team has a great upside. CTC will shorten the rotation and TOs will decrease. .

    I like Fisher’s play. Kid is smart and seems to fit in well. I like his size and hope to see him and Vonleh in there together. With Will and Yogi I would use Troy as first off the bench.

    Illinios game is a big one. If we lose that one it could be a tough start in Big Ten.

    IU should finish at 500 in Big ten and that should get us in the NCAA. From there this team has to upside to win some games….

  • BeatWisconsin

    Same reason Bo Ryan limits his freshman.

  • BeatWisconsin

    Starting line up to limit turnovers and let us see if Will -Yogi – Noah are good enough to win some games without being drowned out by TOs:
    1 – Yogi
    2 – Evan
    3 – Will
    4 – Noah
    5 – Howard (Luke in a couple more weeks)

    If turnovers and experience dictate the outcome on the road in the big ten, then the above line up gives us statistically the best chance to win at Illinois.

  • Indiana_Banners

    I think the rotation is going to tighten up starting @Illinois and I think that’s going to help a bit. I love Devin Davis, but he has been awful the past few weeks, and Etherington hasn’t shown much either.

    I think Crean will end up sticking with the starting lineup he has now, but I see the bench shrinking to Luke, Gordon, and Hanner and spot minutes for everyone else.

  • Shawn Congo

    Definitely StanRob too!

  • Sherronhasaheadache

    lets be realistic here 9-9 in the big ten? i hope you are right but with the turnovers and competition increasing good luck with that 6-7 wins tops

  • MillaRed

    I agree on the coach/progress thing iu base. But there a few things I just will not understand. This is pretty basic stuff.

    Yogi jump passing for 1 1/3 seasons.
    Will’s very freshman looking TO’s.
    Troy’s repetitive mistakes.
    Our 13 player rotation. Seriously? What is that?
    Get the ball to Noah. Better things will happen.
    Do we really have to continue to go 100 miles an hour for 40 minutes? When we have a 20 point lead?

    It’s all good. Just not what we are used to seeing for coaching style the last 4 decades.

  • broladipo



    that’s it. maybe an occasional DD appearance.

  • MillaRed

    If we play in the B1G like we did the last two games, we will not be in the dance.

  • drewheck

    2 games but still nearly 6 minutes of turnover footage for 2 games

  • drewheck

    I like that lineup. Probably won’t happen but Ithinks tthat’s our best shot at making some kind of run. Noah and Luke. Together for more than one or two minutes at a time will give us a formidable front court against conference teams

  • A Train

    I went to the game on Friday and was there early enough to watch the kids warm up and run through pregame drills. The jump pass to the opposite corner must be an option in CTC’s offense as they were practicing it in the pregame. I was surprised as I thought this was just Yogi out of control. I was taught to never leave your feet while passing as early as 2nd grade and heard the same message through every level at which I played.

    It’s such a high risk low reward play I was very surprised to see it as a drill. I’m a CTC supporter but that left me scratching my head a bit………

  • Indiana_Banners

    IMO Stan is going to get mostly spot minutes once Big Ten play starts, unless there is foul trouble or something.

  • MillaRed


  • 3AM Burrito

    Troy Williams TO’s are just maddening, absolutely 7th graders do not make the mistakes he does. Of the 20 turnovers vs. Kennesaw, he had 6 of them. Next time he takes a step without dribbling he should come out for the rest of the game, that is just a ridiculous and flat embarrasing turnover.
    If we were playing a B1G team last Sunday, Yogi would have had probably 10 turnovers, lots of hanging in air and flipping a pass to an area and not a person that our guy just out-athleted the other guy for, would be easy steals against a good team.

  • 3AM Burrito

    Don’t disagree but really we don’t have a lot of choice with the roster we have.

  • notfargj

    thanks, ryan. what you pieced together sheds razor-sharp light on a serious team virus. if i was tech savvy i would create a weekly turnover video compilation.

  • good points…hopefully the TOs will decrease soon or IU will be below 500.