A couple things about the back and forth over youth that I'd like to point out. Sure the freshmen have played 20 games, but so have all the sophomores, juniors, and seniors on the other teams, so everyone's experience level has gone up the same way. You'd hope that the steep learning curve as young players start to recognize things they hadn't seen in HS or practice would make those 20 games more meaningful, but that's not necessarily the case. As older players see things happening on the court, they're better able to adjust to something new or exploit something they've seen before. So a lot of the time, younger players are trying to absorb everything that's going on in front of them, while the older guys are used to that, so they process it without thinking and can focus on what needs their attention.

On a related note, the lack of experience doesn't just affect the way IU performs in games, but it also changes the entire dynamic of a practice. In a typical situation, the older guys know what's going on and can correct mistakes in the course of a drill. When everyone on the court is at the same developmental stage, there's a lot more stop and start, so practice can be less efficient a lot of the time.

That being said, the drop off a cliff after the Michigan and Minnesota wins is just frustrating as hell. I thought something had clicked, at least for most of the team, but now it seems like they're back in the tall grass. I don't know what to say, other than telling myself to be patient, because 19 year olds aren't always going to provide the kind of consistency you want.

Oh, and I'm not sure the Kentucky comparisons work. They have way more talent (and potential for Worldwide Wes-related sanctions), and also play in a much weaker SEC. Not knocking the “not all young teams are as bad as us” argument, which is valid, but it's easier to get results when the only other decent team in the league is Vanderbilt.

Rivers – Rivers is one of he worst Indiana basketball players I've ever seen on the court. He can't hit free throws. He can't hit a mid range shot. He can't hit the 3. He can't drive to the basket and do a normal layup to score an easy point. He has no drive. He plays like its a pick up game at the YMCA. He has hurt this team more than helped it and I don't see much use in playing him anymore. His brother is going to Florida or Duke. Bench him.

Watford – He needs to realize this is his team. I know he is young but so is everyone else on the team. There is no other place in the country he is going to get more exposrue and playing time than Indiana University. All our games are televised. We play in an elite conference. If he wants to transfer to another school and be in the shadows of players like DeMarcus Cousins….let him. I don't want him to leave. I think he can become a great player, but this is the truth. Its his team. He has to use his talent to make us better. I will agree he is playing out of postion. He is a small forward, but when we have several players on the team and comming in that are in the 6'5 range…I dont' see it happening. Crean you have a small forward his name is Watford!!!!!! Get some bigs!

Pritchard – Tom keeps getting worse. What is the positive about having Tom Pritchard on the team? 10 missed free throws in a row??? Take of that jersey my friend you don't deserve to wear it. If Tom could get his head out of his ass and play with some heart he would be ok. He would make an alright back up. He would probalby benefit from playing power forward as well.

VJ III 2.0 – Probaly the most improved Indiana basketball player I've ever seen. Keep up the good work VJ….I for one, understand you can't get this thing done by yourself.

Hulls – This kid has been told he would never play at this level. He just keeps proving people wrong. I take it easy on Hulls because for his size and quickness he is very impressive. He will develope. The kid is a winner and I'm proud to have him on my team.

Elston – Needs more playing time. He is a really good player. We don't need a kid like Eltson going elsewhere we need him in the game developing. He is proof of how kids from Indiana play. Give him time. Offseason could to him very good. If he bulks up I think we have a power forward.

This team has really suffered from loosing both Creek and Roth. Their strong points are scoring the basketball. Its seems like there is always a 4+ minute stretch where we don't score that takes us out of games and they are a big part of that.

Go Hoosiers.

Wouldn't go so far as to say he planned it, by I imagine TC has been thinking about for quite awhile about getting fired up and thrown out of a game…

Mike – you hit the nail on the head. Crean picked the right time too. Hearing the “I need guys that are going to fight with me” quote reaffirms that. We'll see if they respond. I want to go on record to say that Pritchard DOES play with heart, just not much confidence. Keep your jersey on Tom.

I think you underestimate CTC's recruiting…..Cal recruited guys to come into an already established team with key pieces to build around. Crean is recruiting Freshmen to beat out other Freshmen and first year players. Big difference and different type of player. Jon Wall would not have come to KY if they were rebuilding just as IU is……

When IU loses I rarely hear anyone bring up the loss of 17ppg, I BEST offensive threat, one of our BEST on ball defenders, and one of our BEST three point shooters….Mo Creek. I even think the loss of roth hurt as well….

No doubt BGleas, I mentioned early that we handed out a bunch of average scholarships. Watford and Creek are definitely above average and I would go so far to say that Creek is a 5 star athlete. Hulls, Elston, Cappo, Bawa I mean come on — these guys are average at best. You wont even see this average play until they are juniors and seniors either. So what does Crean do? Are we in big trouble here? Was there a lack of judgement when recruiting these players or was he just trying to fill the roster with warm bodies? Can Crean even afford to bring in some Juco's at this point? Will it even matter if Will Yeugette commits? I know I'm asking a bunch of questions, but seriously where does the team go from here?

The lack of an inside presence is a very, very serious issue. This isn't something that can be corrected since we have no bigs coming in. As I said before, all of a sudden it has become clear this team is light years away from becoming a solid, all around team. The other teams in the Big Ten have completely figured IU out, this is part of the problem and we can not do a thing about it. Thats the problem, I mean in non conference play you can get away with not having an inside game, but when your in the middle of the big ten season these coaches will pick you apart. The word on the street is out (and has been for some time now), IU can not stop the inside play and with Jones and Rivers not capable of shooting the 3, well its not good—-not good at all—-matter of fact its pretty scary.

I agree Milla, something is very wrong here. I definitely thought we would be further along at this point in the season. TC is looking at starting his third year as head coach next year and we are worse off than last year if you ask me. Why???? There were no expectations last year, there has been expectations this year and these guys have only won THREE more games than last years team. Has Crean lost the players? Maybe we just need to get Roth and Creek back. Yea, that is part of the problem but I'm telling you that not having any sort of inside game is killing us badly and will continue to until TC finally decides he needs to recruit some decent big men. Talk about problems got problems. This is painful and it makes my head hurt.

I dont think this is the point at all. I went to the Michigan game with my family earlier this year. They looked competitive, good, alert. They were fun to watch. They were still improving even though Creek was gone. Something else is wrong here, something very wrong. Wisconsin is good, but they are not 32 points on top of IU at ASSEMBLY HALL good. No, these guys have definitely quit, either quit on themselves or even worse quit on TC. Its the WAY they have been losing, the WAY they have turned over the ball. At this point these guys are playing worse than the team last year. Even last years team never let another team, inside Assembly Hall, beat them by 30+ and this is with Daniel Moore running point. Think about man, its not about Roth or Creek, its about something way deeper. I have a feeling we are going to find out about it as soon as this season is over. There is something brewing with this team and it's been brewing ever since the Iowa game. ?????????? Who knows, he doesnt let anyone inside of practice, thats the meat and potatoes of every team anyway. If you have ever played or coached you know this is where the real deal is, not games. Practice is like your family when your not at church or at a social function. You know like when you finally get home and you can be real, scream at each other like a loving family does!!!!! Well this is practice for a basketball team and Crean doesn't let anyone in, think theres more to that than just some coincidence????

You are what I call a fair weather fan.. One who does not support the program but one who supports a successful team when they come along. Its obvious you have no short term memory as we tried the quick fix route with KS… Where did that give us.. If you impatience fans would just tune out IU basketball for about 2-3 years and then tune back in I'm sure you will be pleased without having to go through what the rest of us compassionate fans would have to go through.

Vslice you are probaly right, I just don't want to believe there is chaos going on behind the scence…kinda tired of that issue. What I have seen is compared to last year, this team doesn't seem to 'enjoy' playing together as a whole…..some players yes, but there doesn't seem to be that enthusiam. I see a bond with Hulls, Elston, Bobby C….but some of the others don't look like they are mentally there anymore.

Dont know how much easier to put it.. We are right where everyone picked us to be this year. We are young, tired and drained. The reason we were picked at the bottom of the big ten this year is because every annalist in the country knew this was goin to happen. Now If we had a experienced leader (UK's Frosh have Patrick Patterson) to help these young freshman we might be in a little better shape. Crean is recruiting for the future. Not Year to year. How are we gonna bad mouth one of the youngest teams in the nation for not winning??? Its obvious its not CTC that doesn't have the desire and compassion to be the man that brought IU back to relevancy. Its the Players lack of fight and responsibility and they have lost that. He's a great coach. No questions asked.

Leadershit…Indiana….what? Those don't mix…

I am sorry for any disrespectful language. Just write with the emotion I am feeling. I am sorry to anyone that was offended.

They're not that good? That'd be a good place to start. They're playing below their potential, and it's frustrating because we see how good they can play, but I'll preach it until the end, they're young. People got way too optimistic when we won two straight against Minny and Penn State. We're consistently playing top 25 teams every game. Perspective my friend, perspective. Wait for this off season, where they will gain strength and be able to work on their skills individually. Show patience, I'm sure you can find it in your heart

We're playing the top teams in the big ten right now…..

Kelin, our program won't be built on 5* players. We need high 3/ solid 4* recruits to develop under our coaching staff, then the interest will come back from the high profile recruits. I generally like all of your posts but you are extremely negative in this post. Perspective my man, perspective.

Is anyone else worried about the overall lack of strength on this team? People have cited specific players, but I feel like the whole team is just plain skinny. I feel that after a 3/4 or a year and 3/4 these guys would just be bigger. I realize that we are not going to be a huge team, we don't have the athletes that Cal has down there at UK, but even look at us compared to Iowa. The only hawkeye smaller than us was lickliter

Disclaimer before my comment: I did not play organized bball passed elementary, so be patient with my thoughts.

I went back to look again at the schedule over the last 10-15 games, to see when the slide started. As was pointed out by another commenter, it happened with the loss to Iowa at home. What I find interesting is, just before that game we were on a two game winning streak, with our very best chance of the season to make it a three game winning streak. We had just one our first road game in big ten play during the Tom Crean era, and there were quite a few positive comments on here about the improvement of the team.

I high school, I remember my tennis coach telling me how the game was mostly mental. You hit a few good shots, and start feeling good about yourself, and the next thing you know you've lost the game. It seemed to me that that is exactly what happened with Iowa. They lost focus on playing basketball, because they started feeling pretty good about their shot.

After a demoralizing blow-out to Iowa, we then had two close, heartbreaking, losses to Illinois and Purdue. That stretch of one week would be tough for any player to handle, much less a boat load of freshmen who are used to winning any and every game (see Jordan Hulls – Bloomington South).

The next six games were against four of the best teams in the conference, Northwestern (having a record year), and Minnesota (still trying to fight their way to the big dance). That is six very tough games; games that would have been tough for any team to win. Throw in a three tough losses shaking freshmen players, none of the upper classmen putting the team on their shoulders, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I share the same feelings most of you do concerning this team. Yes, they should have shown improvement this year and sadly they haven’t. But this program has fallen due to the previous administration’s poor judgment when dealing with coach Knight, Davis and Sampson. Those decisions cost this program a decade of setbacks and we are still a few years away. Neither coaches nor players were dying to get to Bloomington as our program is not in the upper echelon any more. This is a paradigm shift that our current administration and Crean will slowly change, however it will change for the better.

I did not fully realize until this year where we have fallen. IU does not even register with elite players unless Crean’s relationship goes beyond their common sense. Our program might not even be the fourth best in own State any more.

However all of this is starting to change. Are you surprised by our average GPA??? 3.0+ are you serious? Purdue is not even close to this! The two kids coming next year aren’t pros however their solid and smart and will be upgrades to the program. Crean is spending significant time in Indiana forming strong relationships which will pay off plus he’s hitting strong talented areas around the country. I can’t imagine too many coaches who can out work ours. Crean would not have been my first choice as the coach, however I’m glad to have him and I think he will be very successful here

Before everyone puts their spin on progress, players, coaching etc…, please remember that we probably couldn’t even beat Indiana State at this point, no offense to the fighting Sycamores.

I could break every member of the team down plus the coaching decisions from offensive/defensive structures however let’s keep it all in perspective. It’s very difficult to break players down who under normal circumstances wouldn’t even be at our school. Next year will be an improvement if we stay healthy and so on… I’ve said since day 1 of Crean taking over that he needs 5 years before you can start to really get critical considering the impact the brain trust within the IU administration has done to this program. Don’t blame Crean or these players yet as we were lucky he could even field a team the first year. This isn’t about being young this is just about having a team at this point period.

This coach and AD will succeed and it’s already starting, albeit slowly.

Go IU!

I was originally from Fort Wayne (before moving to Chicago) and have followed IU my whole life, I was at IU in 87 as a freshman when they won their last NCAA title. I played organized BBall until I went to IU. So don't call me a fair weather fan with no credibility, I have been with this team since day one. But with Elson's talent being wasted, should he not have the chance to succeed and play somewhere else? It is obvious that it will not be at IU. For all you CTC Koolaid drinkers out there, take a closer look, he is trying to run a Big east style offense in the Big Ten, and its not work. When CTC was hired, I thought it was the right move. But these kids playing worse than last years walkons, So maybe IU got a little crazy with the 10 yr contract….

I understand your point exactly. They're playing the absolute cream of the crop of the big ten. We haven't seen a blow average team since we played Iowa and that game was just plain terrible. Let's face it, we're going through the grind of the big ten. These players are drained, mentally and physically. I realize that it's frustrating, I go to every game. They are improving, I'll take Coach Crean's word over yours. He isn't getting the translation to the games. I understand that. I'm not naive. I'm not fine with no effort, I've watched every painful minute of every painful game, because I see the players improving. You can look at any player, and you can see they have improved, maybe not the leaps and bounds that some expect, but they improve.

Dumes- For the most part, his shot selection has been very good. He has played very good perimeter defense, though he gets beat sometimes for too much hustle. His ball handling has improved and so has his drive to the basket.
Rivers- Just look at his free throw percentage. He went from not being able to hit any of the two, to hitting 8-8. He also had some big jump shots against Minnesota, though we were already too far out of it. He also plays outstanding defense. He is playing out of position because for the most part, he is the only one that can handle dribbling against the best on the ball defenders in the big ten.
VJ3- Though the defense still lacks, he has become a player who continually creates off the dribble and can create his own shot. He wasn't even strong enough to handle point most of the time last year.
TP- I'm in the select few who believe he has improved. He isn't the low post scorer everyone thought we had last year. He's not athletic enough, but look at how he has been able to stay on the floor in recent games and doesn't pick up two fouls in thirty seconds like at the beginning of the year. He's also rebounding better now.
Hulls- He couldn't even stand on the court with D1 teams at the beginning of the season. He always looked lost. Now he looks like he could very well be leading this team next year at the point, with added quickness.
CW- He's spent. He carried this team for so long, but he is still improving. He rebounds far better than he did at the beginning of the season. He may get blocked a lot, but he is working on the pump fake and his post moves.
Bawa- He doesn't look lost when he's on the floor anymore. When he goes in the game, teams don't get easy layups. No one takes it at him. He is a legit shot blocking presence when he is in the game.
Elston-You can see he has improved his mid-long range game and he is a good scorer under the basket. He is seeing more minutes again because his defense is improving as well.
Capo- Is really our only guy that can cover people in the post and he is hitting some open looks now when he has them. That's already leaps and bounds better than what he contributed at the beginning of the season.
Tijan-The fact he can go on the floor and not fall down like he did last year is remarkable in itself.

As for the competitiveness, there is no excuse. I also don't think that it's that the kids aren't trying. You can see it in their face, they are pissed. They don't go out every game and “Oh well! They're better than us so let's just pack it in.” They try to play with heart, and I know from playing the game that it can be very discouraging. I get pissed too. When they play on the road, I yell and scream at the tv too when VJ gets beat back door everytime. I get angry when Rivers turns the ball over. I get mad when TP gets fouled and misses both free throws, but I know that if I'm patient, I'm not going to pop a blood vessle. I watch every painful minute of every game. I realize they look like they have no heart, but they play hard for the most part. I'm very passionate. I never turn off the tv. EVER. I watch every minute. Youth is not an excuse. It's real. This offseason will be huge for this team. They are going to have to mature. Badly. They have a lot of improving to do. They'd be the first to know it. I realize that was the worst loss ever at Assembly Hall, but if you watched the game, you'd see that it's not because the guys didn't play hard. Wisconsin made 8/11 from three. Yeah, some were uncontested, but they played hard. They also shot 54% from the field. That's hard to overcome. Yeah, they needed to play better defense, but not many teams play great defense against Wisconsin, ask Purdue. They put up 73 points on them, and they are one of the top defenses in the country. Try to belittle me for being optimistic, but truthfully, you're making it way more difficult than it has to be. Be frustrated, but be patient.

Hoosiers.

Well, that's exactly what we got and most fans don't want to give them time to develop from freshman to junior! I guess we all just want to have our cake and eat it too. *** This comment is not directed at you but at the IU fan base right now in general ***

What's wrong is they're not playing with confidence, and some of them may have also hit a wall. I could imagine that with very little to play for, and being on the wrong end of a bunch of losses could wear on a person.

Bottom line though, they started the season with 12 scholarship players. Minus Roth and Creek that number is 10. Considering that Jobe and Bawa are part of that number, you get down to 8 players who can walk and chew gum, plus Daniel Moore, left to play the meat of the Big Ten schedule that is clearly backloaded.

I agree with some people that youth is not our problem. Yes we are one of the worst experienced teams in the NCAA but that doesn't mean you can't play hard and all out every time you step on the court. I just don't see it, there is absolutley ZERO defense these last 9 games. I can't believe I am saying this, but look at Purdue 2 years ago. They basically started 3 or 4 freshman all season and finished 3rd in the conference. I just think at indiana its just a situation where our young guys just aren't buying into the program. It seems to me that IU NEEDS to recruit more players like Jordan Hulls or Derek Elston. Players that are very familiar to Indiana's tradition and history. Because those are the players that are going to give you 110% all the time.