Good, Bad and Ugly: Ohio State

by Ryan Corazza in Good Bad Ugly | January 6th, 2010

BAD AND UGLY: YEAH, WE’RE STARTING IN REVERSE TONIGHT.

Do you know what we learned tonight? Because I’ll tell you what we learned tonight. This Hoosiers team is trending as such: good performances buttressed by bad ones. Really, really bad ones.

Where one could take pride in games like IU’s victory over Michigan, or Pittsburgh or even their work against Kentucky in a loss, they’ve underachieved in Puerto Rico, looked woeful at home in a loss to Loyola (Md.) and looked equally bad against Ohio State in Columbus this evening.

We wanted to look to the Michigan game as a sign this team has turned the corner, that they were going to be OK without Mo Creek. But they are young. Young teams will do that to you. They will emblazon your heart one moment with the promise of better things on the horizon, only to regress to a middle-school turnover fest the next.

If you watched the game this evening — IU’s first real road test of the season in a stadium that wasn’t even full and was pretty lifeless — you know what happened here. Turnovers were the story. Unforced, dribbled-off-the-leg turnovers. Fourteen in the first half, coupled with the length and athleticism of Ohio State’s man defense that left IU stagnant on the offensive end, and there was just no turning back. Christian Watford had six of those 14 turnovers in the first half. (IU finished with 24 for the game, by the way.) And where Devan Dumes came in and saved the day against Michigan last week, he instead air-balled a three upon his arrival.

Ohio State hit 5-of-10 threes and grabbed 12 points off all those turnovers in the first half, while IU ended it with their lowest point total of the season heading into the locker room (20).

Up 18 to start the second half, Ohio State got out in transition for a couple buckets early, and the lead eventually ballooned all the way to 32. Evan Turner was not needed this evening, that’s for sure.

IU just had no answers tonight. The road is always a tough journey in the Big Ten. Add in a young, inexperienced team to the mix, and it becomes that much harder.

THE GOOD: VJ3, FREE THROWS, TOMORROW IS ANOTHER DAY.

Can’t say enough about Verdell Jones. The kid brought it for 20 points against Michigan last week, and then topped it tonight, pouring in 22 points on 7-of-16 shooting, and 7-of-8 from the charity stripe. IU was an impressive 14-of-17 from the line for 82.4 percent tonight as well.

You hate to see IU play like this, because you know they’re capable of so much more. But this team has proven so far that its a wildly inconsistent performer. Until they string solid performances on top of each other and don’t go into a dark regression again, it’s hard to gauge which IU team is going to show up on any given night.

Tags: Christian Watford, Ohio State Buckeyes, Verdell Jones

barrel1

I have always been a believer that a strong team makes it's presence first on the defensive end. The zone that Crean is teaching these kids is well below any zone defense I've seen of any good team. Make them move there feet and play a strong man to man. I have read al the comments and everyone is asking the same question, "what is the substitution plan at IU?" I read a comment the other day on this site that everyone liked Derrick coming off the bench, because of his energy. Well, it looks like to me that Crean has sapped the energy out of that kid. Since he started those two games, his minutes have dwindled and dwindled. I know I am not at practice, but if Jeremiah Rivers is the leader of that team, we are hurting. The freshman were recruited for a reason, and that was to help bring the program back, but if they don't get the opportunity to do that consistently who will want to come to IU? I heard during the summer session, that the freshman dominated the upper class daily, and that was without Creek. I guess coming to school early really didn't pay off, because Crean is out on the road daily, which I do understand. Who know's maybe in 3 more years we'll be looking for his successor!!!!!!!!!

BaseballBuc

All i'm seeing in most of these posts is as if the sky is falling. Remember back to last thursday when we were all overjoyed with the way IU beat Michigan. Now, (including myself) most of us can't remember the good things IU or Tom Crean has done this season. We beat, what now should be a top 25 pitt team after beating syracuse and cincinatti, on the biggest stage in the country. We beat a solid michigan team, struggling or not. We already have more wins than last year. I've said it a million times, I'll say it again; this is a young team, so we can't expect greatness all the time. I am extremely pleased in the work of Tom Crean in his tenure so far. What he has done with recruiting as well as with his players on the court and in the classroom, deserves the accolades in my opinion.

When i sit and become disappointed over an IU game during the Big 10, I'm not going to say who Tom should of substituted here or there, or that they should of run this play. I am going to back the program and trust in CTC that he will take us where we need to go to win, and we will get there.

MillaRed

I don't want to seem sarcastic but did you watch this game? Regardless of who we have beaten etc. I just have a hard time watching our kids run around like chickens with their heads cut off. We were downright embarrassing.

I think what most of us are saying is we don't understand how any team young or old can throw the ball into the stands without pressure. How about just plain staying on our feet?

I get your point but I think we have a varied opinion on the low level or performance and the substitution pattern is curious at best. Only an opinion.......

BaseballBuc

I agree completely. My point was that some of us aren't giving the program the time it needs. Myself included, I mean I am sitting watching the game doing what every IU fan is doing. Throwing magazines at the tv because Pritchard dribbles into the corner and throws a ball away. Yelling at Rivers when he throws a pass in the stands. But is there anything we can do but hope for better. Crean wants to win more than anybody. He is a VERY competitive guy. I understand the complaints with the substitutions, but none of us watch practice. Maybe Elston hasn't been going very hard and he is sitting as a result. Ever seen John Wall play? In my opinion he is the best player in the nation. But he still committs about 4 or 5 turnovers a game.

MillaRed

Tell you what Buc, as soon as I read you were throwing magazines I realized we are on the same page. I wish the best for these kids too, trust me.

By the way, nice Armon Bassett reference. What would it be like to have him and Jordan Crawford right now? I hear Holman ain't bad either. And who is that kid at WV? Devin Ebanks? I know it wasn't meant to happen etc., but think about what kind of talent was in the funnel during/before Sampson. A lot of good dudes, the kid that went to Cincinnati? Wow.

BaseballBuc

Good to know we agree Milla. Ya, I really loved Bassett too. I will get to see Eli Holman play when he plays Valparaiso, and he probably would still be on the IU roster if he wouldn't of shattered a potted plant when he threw it against a wall in Crean's office lol. As far as the talent level goes, I still will defend to the day that IU's 2008 team was in the top 5 in the country in talent level alone. It was a shame it couldn't of played out better.

garydavid711

They needed DD to replace MC to shoot the 3 inconsistent. Rivers is a rock shooter that kills you at his position. Hulls can shoot 3 off screens but can't create on his own.
They need Elston but 10 min game has lowered his bobber. He is not being given the same slack as the rest and has not shown what he can really do. Will he be back next season?

aceman07

Man, this is team is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde! I thought they would just hang around and get beat respectably. I reserved the beat-downs for WISC, MSU, and PU! Man was I wrong!

Kelin Blab

I look at last nights game and I will continue to buy the youth of this team and the ups and downs. It is what it is people. A few thoughts....

+ Not sure what has happened to Elston offensive game he had in h.s. but it ain't here right now.
+ Said it before, J.Rivers is unstoppable with a jumpshot. I would 'self check' him all day....
+ Hulls plays because, hulls is one of the best decision makers on the team.
+ Liked the Bawa jumphook last night. That was the first post move I have seen in weeks.
+ OSU is a good team
+ VJ3 just continues to get better and better.
+ Would like to see wateford on the block more

MillaRed

Sorry to piggyback on your comments Kelin but they are good points.

Hopefully Elston's offense improves as IU improves. I too would be terrified to shoot when the team plays this horribly. I think he will be fine. Scoring is contagious or in our case, anemic.

This is what scares me folks, Rivers had an ENTIRE OFF SEASON to work on that jumper! His 3 missed by 2 feet. The other shots? CLANK! A jump shot is 60% mental, and that dude is very, vey weak mentally. I'm shocked at how unsound he is.

Put Hulls on a top Big Ten team right now and he gets 5 assists a game easy. When his 3's start falling he will be even better.

Get Bawa in the game for crying out loud! WTH?

OSU is good yes, but we beat ourselves so badly they didn't need to be good. If they make the final 32 I will be surprised.

Take away the TOs and VJ is 1st team all big ten eh?

I expect Watford to follow VJs freshman path. Big second half of the season for him.

Kelin Blab

Milla your point about Rivers is 100% right and 0% wrong. For the life of me I cannot understand that 'shooting' would be his glaring flaw in his game when:

+ His brother Austin is AUTOMATIC! Surely they worked out together.....
+ He had a year plus to work and work and work at it.....
+ The rest of his game is pretty solid defensively, ball handling, and getting to the basket. Shooting the ball is one of the fundamentals you learn early....
+ If he had a decent jumpshot he has professional basketball skills.

Give me a year off in my late 30's with ample gym access, I would be one of the best shooters in the country. I live in fear of the coach that decides to just layoff J. Rivers and sag in the lane.

cooper

His form is horrible. I have no idea how with a year off the coaches didn't change his form. I can see why it didn't change in HS it didn't have to, and at GU it didn't matter. How can the coaches have watched him the entire year and not said time to change something? If he has wide open jump shots from the foul line or near there he needs to just shoot. Working on it in the game is the only thing to build his confidence and right now he has none.

I don't think you can sag off him though. Even if they do he has the size and is physical enough to still get to the lane. The problem comes once he gets to the lane. He has minimal kick out options and less low post options than that. I agree he needs to lower his TO but I'd put half of them each game on the player he passes to. Maybe Ray Allen can give him some tips in the offseason

MillaRed

Everyone on ITH that has played ball understands shooting. Tuck that elbow, follow through, hand in the cookie jar, etc etc.

It's TOTALLY mental for him. At the end of the day it's just a damn shame. If he was a perimeter threat it really opens the lane.

Here's the deal though Kelin, I could forgive the poor shooting if he eliminated the 4-5 completely unforced turnovers a game. They are sooooooo hard to watch! UGH!

JerryCT

Now that I have vented I feel better about thinking of Illinois. If it were me I would be tempted to do the following:

1) Start Rivers, Dumes, Elston, Pritchard , Watford , Elston ( trying to defend Davis )

2) Try to play 30 min each for DUmes, Jones, Watford, Rivers, Elston, Pritchard . This means only 8 players getting time unless we have a breakdown on fouls, injuries, major fatigue. If you think I am crazy consider that we already last night had 5 players over 25 minutes

3) We get the extra minutes per player from Hulls and Moore which last night totaled 40 min ie an entire game

4 )Subs: Jones first option off the bench but still plays 30 min . Hulls only 10 min and only when Jordan is in the game. If needed then Capo only when deparate and Keller is in the game, Bawa spells Pritchard and/or we cannot handle the 7 footer

5) Press early as Illinois has a tendency to fall behind early and their starters are not the best handlers of the ball..........then zone or trap

6) If we are not in shape then we know what we need to do

Bedo

Hey Crean, How about using the entire season to develop ALL the players to win the Big 10 tournament! Bawa needs time!!!!!!!!!! to be a big time player. Have a rotation that is 10 deep. Take out players who are sucking. Have a vision for this teams's destiny and future. Get a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!! When Rivers or anyone else is making mistakes - PUT THEM on THE BENCH!!!!!!!!!!!! Be a coach for the Fan's sake.

IUDan

I have to say that I could not disagree more with this. Last night was truly a disaster - plain and simple. But it's funny how people who don't watch practice question why so-and-so isn't playing more. maybe it's that they aren't getting the offense as well - maybe they just aren't as good. Your point about everyone needing development is true - but that WILL NOT COME by playing a 10 man rotation. IU is in a situation where there is a distinct lack of leadership - every player has a bad game, every player makes mistakes - there needs to be enough leeway for guys to work through that on the court in game situations, rather than being yanked at the first sign of trouble.

Look - I was AT the game last night and stayed until the brutal end - it was good to see everyone get in - particularly Bawa who did some good things and some not-so-good things. i don't watch practice, but based on what I saw he seems to get a bit lost on the court.

The game was horrible, and we played about as poorly as possible, but OSU also played about as well defensively as I've seen. We got destroyed - it happens - particularly on the road - just ask OSU about their trip to Wisconsin . . . and they are a good, experienced team.

everyone just back off the ledge a bit . . . see how we do this weekend.

RedYard

I know Rivers is seen as a great player and near-savior by some, but I don't get it. A big part of the reason it's tough to get any offense started is because he is zero threat to score from anywhere outside 5 feet. Defenders get to sag way back and clog passing lanes to the block (did Watford ever get the ball inside 15 feet last night?). Rivers is only effective when he's driving, and his terrible free throw shooting neutralizes any layup threat. Hulls may not be much of an offensive weapon, but he's in because at least he draws his defender out of the lane when he has the ball.

I agree that Dumes has to play more; he is the only player besides Rivers who can create offense, and he seems to be playing much more under control this year. He is a poor man's Maurice Creek.

Everyone was up after the Michigan game; let's not forget that OSU, with Evan Turner, was #13 in the AP rankings. I'm not saying 24 TO's is acceptable, but we all knew these games were going to happen. Let's see if the team can regroup and get a home win (or at least a solid showing) against Illinois.

HoosierSmitty

Good - Agree with Ryan on these, but would add a little

1. The game is over - we have a road game under our belt finally.
2. Free Throws - we actually hit them. Now let's do it when the game is close!
3. VJ III - positives largely outweight any ball handling issues. VJ III is playing confidence.
4. Watford - Watford disappeared in the 2nd half, but he hit some big shots in the 1st half. The kid can ball, but he is still a work in progress.

Bad - None; it was all pretty ugly

Ugly

We showed our true colors tonight and got slaughtered by a tougher, more skilled team. Match up problems were abundant. We're just not that good. We fight our butts off and work hard from start to finish and I love that about this team. That's what makes these kind of games watchable...these kids work hard.

A Few Big Problems I See After Two Games

1. We don't have a dynamite 3 point shooter like a Diebler or even Novak to help bail us out when we need a big bucket (Is ours really Hulls with no Roth or Creek?)
2. Our bigs can't consistently rebound. We let our guards do all the rebounding and we get bullied down low.
3. Our guards aren't good shooters or smart ballhanders - Rivers cannot shoot from long range, and either can Jones. Jones has worked hard on a nice mid range game, but he can't dribble or seem to hit it in traffic. Rivers is out of control on every other possession.
4. Stagnant - Our offense is slow to develop (when it looks like there's any kind of offense) and we don't seem to be athletic enough to execute plays
5. Inbounds - How many times are we just going to throw it away before we try and set a SCREEN for someone.
6. Block out - We go for the ball instead of doing our job and blocking out our man.

Just so many frustrating things seem like they are fixable, yet I don't see them getting fixed. It makes me question what's getting accomplished. Is Crean just too stubborn to realize that this group can't do the things he's asking? Against inferior teams we can look good, but against a team full of athletes we get brutally punished.

Here's to hoping we come out with some more fire against Illinois!

MillaRed

I have to agree with you guys. Once again CTC and is abilities are in question here. His decision making did nothing to help the team. What are we running out there? I coached youth basketball for 6 years and even my 5th graders had 10 sets. The subbing pattern? Man I really am getting concerned with all of that. The team WAS NOT PREPARED. Young or not.

Hey Rivers, what in the hell are you doing out there? You are a 4th year junior and your dad is the coach of the Boston Celtics! You shoot like a 7 year old. Your turnovers are terrible. Your horrible play set the tone for this game (and others) very early and I'm getting sick of it. An occasional great block and a few rebounds aren't enough. I would rather see Dumes replace Rivers instead of Hulls. At least Jordan is getting much need exposure.

cooper

VJ played well, he looked like he belonged which is saying something this game. Rivers seemed very frustrated early but played pretty well on D. Its obvious he just cant shoot. I hope he asks Dad to hook him up with Rondo in the offseason so he can learn to become effective on offense without shooting. Rondo can't shoot and is horrible from the line. I have no idea why Elston doesn't play, if you want to run he seems to be a much better big to be in the game than Pritchard. I hope the talk stops of Hulls getting more minutes. He can't guard anyone, Diebler was shooting over his head pretty easily. On offense he cant penetrate to the 3pt line and that doesn't fit with the dribble drive offense. Dumes played on D, and should've got more minutes. He didn't seem to try to force it on offense. Pritchard, I still don't get him getting so many minutes. He did not play well. Watford was fine but could use some work on his left hand.

I will never understand how Crean subs. How the hell do you put Hulls and Moore on the floor at the same time? Why didn't Elston play more?

JerryCT

As usual I mostly agree with you and MillaRed below except:

Pritchard - 1) our only screener and he is very good,
2) our offense often starts with his screen,
3) he boxes out very well enabling our guards to rebound,
4) he seals on drives enabling points from guards in the paint,
5) he hedges on screens on defense like no one else on the team enabling Hulls to actually stay in the game and keeps Jones from being embarrassed

I am reluctant to criticize Crean but I am getting lost as to several things:

1) Substitution patterns and lineups on the floor at the same time
2) Unbalanced minutes played ie Elston and DUmes compared to Hulls/Moore
3) Development minutes by Bawa are too low
4) In bounds plays are scary shaky
5) No innovation on offense or defense ( no press or trap when we are behind )
6) If Rivers could only shoot a mid range pull up, can't that be taught ?
7) Hulls posted down low w Rivers at the point instead of vice versa ( I assume this is to get Hulls open for a corner 3 but I would rather have Rivers working around the basket than Hulls jacking a 3 )

I am not buying the youth excuse and the culture excuse anymore.......lets quit whining and start finding answers even if it takes this year again to develop

cooper

I'd really like to see him go after a player for how they are playing. I'm tired of hearing about firsts and building. Its talk of a loser. I'd like to hear him say, what happened was completely unacceptable and if players don't make a change they are going to be sitting next to me on the bench.

I don't know what he does in practice but I'm really tired of seeing him on the sideline sit there and clap like a moron. Its like having a bad child and telling them its ok just be better. Enough they've had 13 games to get used to playing. They've clearly showed they can play better so when they don't call them out on it. Look what Matta did to start the game. Look what Pearl did during a timeout last night. Get upset, get angry, get a technical foul. DO something other than clap

CreamandCrimson

Agreed, I don't want to hear "they're young and they don't know how to win" used as a crutch for performances like last night. We knew this was going to be another building year and next year will be as well but there are no excuses for the way they played last night.

Using the excuse of youth isn't acceptable for the players, coaches or fans. I'm still completely on the CTC bandwagon, he is the right man for the job and I take pride that he is our coach. Don't bail on this team guys, it's going to take time but we will be back.

Bored_in_the_Offseason

I tell you what, sometimes I read this blog and the comments from some of the readers are just down right depressing. Sure, they got drubbed last night. It happens; it will continue to happen for the time being. They are young, they are learning. It’s frustrating as a fan, right? Sure is. But they are better by leaps and bounds than last year’s squad and that counts for a lot. If playing consistently at this level was easy, every team would be great. That’s clearly not the case. So back of the ledge a little bit, ok? As Ryan noted in his post: today is a new day. Saturday is another opportunity. One step at a time. We have a great chance in beating the Ill-Whini at home, let’s hope they seize that.

CreamandCrimson

That was really disappointing. I expected us to get drilled in a couple of games this season but not by Ohio State. The turnovers and defense were tough to take but I am going to focus on something that I really don't understand.

We continue to hear that Tom Pritchard is "the best player in practice". However, we have yet to see any kind of production on the floor. I really don't understand why he is in the game. I am not bashing him as a person but I have seen no reason to give him more playing time than Bawa or Derek Elston. Pritchard doesn't score, he doesn't rebound and his defense is average at best. There were a lot of frustrating things last night but Pritchard's play seems to consistently poor. Let's bounce back this weekend against the Illini.

aceman07

It's probably easy to be the best player in practice. Looks who he's playing against! He's a bruiser not an athlete and in practice who is more athletic than him??? He would be perfect as the second power forward coming in off the bench to grab some garbage points and beat up on the other team's star big man. You wouldn't have to worry about his foul trouble then either! This is the case because IU needs to recruit a talented "big" NOW!!!

BFowler

OK, glass half full, and all that......24 turnovers was excruciating. I thought Rivers was supposed to stop all that.....I was not expecting this game to be a win, but I certainly thought it could be respectable......I can not explain what we were doing on offense. That reminded me of the Mike Davis/Bracey Wright days......I could see the frustration on the kids' faces and they began to press and cause more frustration......I hope it was a growing experience for them, on the road (albeit at a not-very-hostile evironment; how many TO's would they have had at Mackey?). I've seen many a team at Indiana lay an egg (I remember a game at the Barn in like 2000 where we were in the top-20 and lost by 50, so this is just another game in the long line of goose eggs). It is frustrating, but I hope it becomes a learning experience, not a confidence oppressor......GO HOOSIERS! We will continue to back you!

aceman07

Oh man! I remember that game. I remember RMK looking like he was going to blow a vein in his forehead and then by the end of the game he was just sitting there like, "What the . . .?" That's a horrible memory. Thanks for throwing salt in an open wound. LOL

sinkingiufan

Tom Prichard really is a division 2 type player,IF HE'S LUCKY...
They played with no heart in this one..They really stink .
Thanks Kelvin Sampson,and the IU administration for hiring this cheater..
Maybe coach Cal will hire him as an assistant..

IU4Life

Rivers should be included in the Bad section for this game. When they showed highlights of IU's turnovers in the first half, most of them were because of Rivers. Also, Jeremiah CANNOT shoot from more than 5 feet from the basket, yet I saw him take multiple shots from well outside of his range. I've been disappointed with his play the whole season because he keeps trying to take over games even though he isn't that type of player.

JerryCT

I thought we had learned from the Mich game that our most effective lineup includes Rivers and Dumes on the floor at the SAME TIME.....the Hulls minutes need to drop like a rock and Dumes minutes to take their place. Box score does not show the Dumes effort on D ( ie deflections and shot prevention ) and his offensive effectiveness was much better compared to Hulls. It is very unfortunate you choose to focus on one shot by Dumes instead of 5 by Hulls.

I donot understand our substituions at all. Dumes/Rivers at the same time lasted about 90 seconds. At one point we had 4 point guards and TP in the game but did not press ....so I miss the point of the lineup. Bawa and Elston need to play.

Why does Elston's butt eat so much wood ?

This kind of game does not help recruiting

HoosierSmitty

Jerry,

I agree on Dumes.

As much as I love ITH, it seems pretty apparent that there's no love lost for Dumes at ITH and with many of its readers.

Dumes in fact didn't take the 3 until after he subbed in for the 2ND TIME. During his first appearance in the game (i.e. arrival) he actually had an offensive rebound followed by a much needed basket after we had gone 5 minutes without a field goal.

Personally, Devan's game is much more under control and he's passed up on a lot of shots he would have jacked up last season.

We need Dumes to be productive - and he has to have his chances. He'll make his mistakes, but he brings a lot of good to the court. He had a steal, 3 boards, and hit both of his free throws in a limited role last night. He needs more court time than 16 minutes now that Creek is out.

I don't see how Crean justified keeping Hulls on the court when he was getting destroyed on the defensive end and couldn't do anything offensively.

cooper

I think it has to do with him being a transfer in, same with Rivers. For some reason IU fans never seem to accept transfers in. Dumes is clearly a better player in all facets of the game than Hulls. People thinking he should play over Rivers are clouded because he is from Bloomington.

If anyone goes and watches the game again they will see Hulls doesn't really fit the offense as a point guard. He cannot get to the lane which is the point of dribble drive. He is a decent shooter and tries hard. He doesn't fit on D because he isn't tall enough to guard a 2, and isn't fast enough to guard a PG. He may develop into something but he isn't one of the best 5 now. He is a freshman and is learning how to play. He needs to bulk up work on his quickness and dribble and by his junior year I could see him possibly starting.

Rivers isn't a good shooter but that isn't the point of a PG. He fits the offense because he gets to the lane, some of the TO are his fault others are the result of players not catching passes. Again, look at how Rajon Rondo plays, he can't shoot, hits 53% of FT attempts, and is one of the best PG in the NBA. He is good because he can get to the lane and either hit the layup or pass to an open man who can hit a shot. IU doesn't have that consistently right now. Rivers should model his game after that.

BGleas

I agree Coop. The difference is Rivers can provide other things beyond scoring. If Hulls isn't hitting threes, then at this point there isn't much else he can provide. I just think CTC has to reevaluate how he's using Rivers.

It's clear having the bulk of the ball handling responsibilities is currently outside his skillset, he's just turning it over too much. This is why I can't understand when Rivers and Hulls play together, that Rivers still runs the point and Hulls plays the wing? It just doesn't make sense.

Hulls is a point guard, Rivers is a slasher that can be a good secondary ball handler. Having Hulls on the wing, when he's not hitting three's, renders him useless, but at the point he can provide calmness, take care of the ball and set things up. Putting Rivers on the wing should limit his chances for the unforced turnovers and give him more chances to attack the rim effectively and put him in better positions to use another of his skills, offensive rebounding.

JerryCT

Thanks Smitty.........I watch each game at least 3 times w slow-mo etc to see what is happening and I was beginning to think I was alone out here regarding Dumes.

On defense with Rivers plus Dumes we have 1 + 1 = 3......the whole is greater than the sum of the parts becasue the perimeter is defended, the other team moves away from the basket, Pritchard does not have to help as much and foul as much etc. On offense we have 3 players who can drive and Dumes can hit the 3 now and again.

With Hulls we have 1 + .5 = .5 where the player Rivers guards has an outlet and Pritchard has to help on screens too much and then foul. This lineup w Hulls gets us behind early.

Larry

I agree with you on the lack of playing time for Elston? He was not recruited by Crean? Could that have something to do with it? I would hope not. Even when he plays, and is wide open, he rarely sees the ball due to Rivers "pounding" it so much........until he throws it away.

larry

Rivers has just aweful skills. 2-8 from the field and the 2 makes were layups. The 6 misses were bricks and/or airballs. Of course he had his usual 6 turnovers. The Crean hooneymoon will end soon if this does not turnaround. I am tired of hearing how "young" this team is.

superhoops

Rivers sucks and continues to suck. For every good play he has, he has 4 bad ones or turnovers. Yes he's quick. Yes he's somewhat athletic. But if he didn't play, I would not miss him. His 2-4 points a game aren't worth it and his pathetic free throw shooting isn't worth it. He's been around basketball all his life and this is the best it gets? Why Crean continued to play him in the first half as he was single handedly throwing the game away is beyond me. I guess that's why I don't get paid a million dollars a year to coach.

spiderman0551

Painful to watch. Can some one explain to me why neither Jobe or Bawa is getting in to games until the last few minutes? These guys have a long way to go to develop and sitting on the bench in a blow out seems counter productive to me. Davis used to do this too with Ewing Jr and it frustrated me....these kids need to play and since we aren't contending for anything, we need to get these kids some minutes. Of course, since we lost everybody piles on...when we win, Crean and the boys are heroes. Gonna be another long year, just wish we would think further ahead than 1 game with the kids we have.

Uncle Joey

I think he lives in the starters because its THEM who need the extra minutes. Lets be honest here... we're working with mostly freshmen and/or inexperienced players who desperately need the time on the court to hone their skills.

marsh21

The depressing item is the fact this is basically the same team you will see next year. Creek will help but we would still get blown out by 20 with him the way IU played tonight.

CreamandCrimson

This is not the same team we are going to see next year. Watford, Hulls and Elston will all be a lot better in a year's time. VJIII continues to improve. Creek will be back, Roth will be back. Plus we add two quality players in Sheehey and Oladipo. You're right, the Hoosiers were horrible last night but this won't be the same team next season.

marsh21

Technically you're correct however the incoming freshman should vary little from the current, Roth is not a big ten player in the least thus I don't think he's a major factor, current freshman improvement should happen but not to the degree it will take to have a winning season and Watford, Hulls and Elston will improve but they are not playing at a high level currently so they would need to make major improvements. As for Creek, I agree that will be great for us.

However we don't have a major point guard player to run the team consistantly and that's what makes college basketball teams win. He need a high 4/5 star point guard or we will see more the same plays like last night.

I'm positive and a huge fan but realistic as well. Crean will work his magic but this is going to take another 3 to 4 years before we see top 20 action. He had nothing to start with and it will be slow as he was already behind on the 2010 class.

Uncle Joey

Next season is a longgg ways away.

CreamandCrimson

Yeah, it is. But I think it is safe to assume that this won't be the same team next season.

a501

How is VJ3 one of the goods? He continuously tops the list of turnovers, including tonight.

aceman07

What exactly are you watching? Of course he's going to have a few turnovers in a game because he's the only player on the floor consistently trying to get to the basket and create some offense! The problem is people who watch a game and only fall in love with the flashy, score 10 in a row type players. A guy like VJ3 who score consistently throughout the game keeps you in a game if the rest of the team does anything possible. They don't beat MICH unless VJ3 leads the team! Try to pay attention next time. He also had at least one turnover where he made a decent pass that went off the hands of an unprepared big man!

dougy

So you would have liked scoring 34 points tonight??? he had 4 turnovers not good, but it wasnt 6 like watford and rivers each had. Hulls had 4 too, but he went 0-5. seemed to me like vj3 is playing more focused basketball by far over the rest of this team. Crean's gotta get these guys ready to go each night.

Wish

VJ3 does struggle with TO's but his asst/to ratio is better this year than his freshman year so that makes me believe it's going to continue to improve. He's sitting at 1.24 ratio right now and Rivers is at 1.3'ish so do with that what you want.

I only wish that he would have the same aggressiveness on the offensive end when Creek is around. If they can get both of these guys scoring 15+ and then throw in Watford around 13 next year then IU will have three long, athletic scorers that could be tough to match up with in the B10. I think VJ3 should be a 15/5/5 guy at his worst but it's up to him to make it happen every night.

dagwoodsupreme

That was a very rough game to watch....and what pissed me off even more was OSU continuing to rain threes on us when they were up 20. I hope we remember that a couple of years down the road.

I had to watch this to get me in somewhat of a better mood:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vi...

I would love a win against the Illini!!!

HoosierSmitty

This is definitely an up and down team. Unfortunately there are plenty more downs lately. Going to keep rolling with the punches and cheering the Hoosiers on...as depressing as it can get sometimes.

They play of a guy like Verdell Jones help maintain that hope that things will get better

dougy

lol i saw armon bassett completely F'd up at a baseball game, its a good thing he's not here.

BaseballBuc

Wow. I didn't think IU would get absolutely dominated as they did tonight. Obviously preparing for Evan Turner didn't help much. If IU can't play well in a very non-intimidating arena like Value City, I am worried for future road games. Transition defense was atrocious.

To cap off an even worse night, Armon Bassett hit a game winning 3 against IUPUI.

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